overseas service chevrons

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day all,

My grandfather enlisted in the 2nd Battalion AIF on 13/8/15 and embarked for service abroad on 30/12/15.

After being wounded twice he was repatriated back to Australia on 11/1/18, disembarked at Sydney on 7/3/18 and was discharged medically unfit ( shell shock and gun shot wounds ) on 16/4/18.

How many overseas service chevrons would he be entitled to? (3 or 4?)

Thanks in advance to any and all who respond.

Regards

Pop

(Sean McManus)

[Piorun]

I would have said two. He'd get one for 12/15 to 12/16 and another for 12/16 to 12/17. I'm sure that a Pal with more expertise will be along to confirm or expand. Antony

[WhiteStarLine]

Sean,

I am going for three.

Here is a quotation from Lawrance Ordnance, a militaria shop:

On 4 January 1918 approval was given for the award of chevrons to denote

overseas service after 4 August 1914. The chevrons were of two colours. If the

first chevron was earned on or before 31 December 1914, then it was red. If it

was earned on or after 1 January 1915, it was blue. All additional chevrons

after the first were blue. The AIF awarded the first chevron on the date the

soldier left Australia. Additional chevrons were awarded for each successive

aggregate period of twelve months service outside Australia.

However, I cannot quite reconcile this with my grandfather's case. He enlisted 27/10/16, embarked 11/5/17. The entry for 22/7/17 says RBAA Larkhill and the next line says 'One Blue Chevron 11/5/17'. The entry for 15/5/19 says 'Sapper Retd to Australia Devonport Eng 15/5/19 per ORONTES.

I have his three chevrons in front of me as I write, so maybe the partial last year counted as his third. He was also entitled for a red one for service with the ANMEF in New Guinea, but I suspect he dared not ask for it with so many Anzacs around! Particularly as there was an onboard mutiny on the troopship and he did not actually get to fight.

Cheers,

Bill

[Muerrisch]

this from my MHS article:

The Great War involved the Colonies, whose soldiers served in very similar uniforms to the parent country. Canada in its own Canadian Militia Pay and Allowance Regulations 1914 followed the British system regarding qualification and awards. The Australian usage is complicated, in that the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) (which fought overseas) and the Australian Military Forces (who were the permanent force based in Australia) followed different criteria. Taking the latter first, the badge was the same and the criteria were very similar to the British, and for good conduct per se. Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing, Citizen Forces MO 424/1912 and 58/1919 refer. The AIF badge, a chevron as in the British service, was for ‘long service and good conduct’ and appears to have been introduced on 24th January 1917 by AIF Order 470, Long Service Badges. Qualification was from date of embarkation, one badge for each completed year overseas, all ranks up to and including Warrant Officer, with no additional pay. These latter badges may well have become obsolete when the ‘chevrons for overseas service’ (AIF Order 1089 of 29th January 1918) were introduced, identical to the British issue, small chevrons, point up, worn lower right sleeve, one for each year overseas and manufactured in blue with the exception of that for 1914 which was red.

[Piorun]

G'day, Bill: very interesting pics. The quote from the shop's a bit unclear, tho'. Does it mean that a Digger would get two chevrons for a day-and-twelve-months service and then one for each further twelve months? That seems a bit illogical, especially as the chevrons weren't awarded 'til 1918. I have interpreted the regs to mean that the stripes were awarded for each period of successive twelve months service, starting on the date of embarkation (as opposed to the date of arrival). Cheers, Antony

[Piorun]

one for each year overseas and manufactured in blue with the exception of that for 1914 which was red.[/i]

Grumpy; is that one for each calendar year - or - one for each year of service, with a red one if the service started in 1914? Antony

[Joe Sweeney]

I'm not 100% sure about Australian regulation nuances,but as far as award of chevrons.

The first awrad was for just showing up (day entered active theatre for UK or Day arrived for overseas troops (canadian). A Canadian was awarded stripes for service in the UK when British troops were not.

He would then get a nopther stripe after each successive qualified 12 month period.

He should have been eligible for on stripe based on arriving intheatre in Dec 1915 and then one for each after 12 month period.

I say he probably qualified for 3 chevrons.

1st 12/15

2nd 12/16

3rd 12/17

The fact he wsa out of service by April 18 probably menat he actually never got the chevrons as they were only introduced in Jan 1918.

Joe Sweeney

[Muerrisch]

I hope this is clear enough?

The AIF badge, a chevron as in the British service, was for ‘long service and good conduct’ and appears to have been introduced on 24th January 1917 by AIF Order 470, Long Service Badges. Qualification was from date of embarkation, one badge for each completed year overseas,

[Piorun]

So, that's two chevrons. Antony

[Joe Sweeney]

Grumpy,

Still not clear--Looks like AIF order 1089 (what is refered to as Overseas chevrons) is what is being refered to and not AIF470. In which case it looks like it follows the British Order 1918.

Antony,

I was wrong on qualificatyion date for overseas troops was date of leaving not arrival. What drove the award and what looks like AIF1089 was:

AO 4 1918 is paraphrased below:

The date of award of the first Chevron was that on which the individual left the UK, or in the case of those serving abroad at the outbreak of war, 5 August 1914. For Overseas troops, the first chevron was awarded on the date of leaving their own country or were employed on local operations. Further Chevrons were awarded for each succesive aggregate period of 12 months. One month of leave was permitted in calculation. If first point of service was before 31 Dec 1914 a red chevron was awarded after 1 Jan 1915 all were blue.

In this case the award would still be three whether date is embarkation or arrival. The order is written so that you got one for just showing up and getting on the ship.

Joe Sweeney

[David B]

He was only entitled to two. The order states 'for each completed year from the date he left Australia, so:

left Aust 30-12-15'.

30-12-16 entitled to first.

30-12-17 entitled to second.

Arrived home in first half of 1918 - no further chevron as he did not complete a further year.

[Muerrisch]

as I read it, an Aussie got one as he stepped on the ship at Freo. or wherever. EMBARKATION means getting on, not off.

[Piorun]

Here is a quotation from Lawrance Ordnance, a militaria shop:

The AIF awarded the first chevron on the date the

soldier left Australia. Additional chevrons were awarded for each successive

aggregate period of twelve months service outside Australia.[/indent]

The problem (apart from accepting a retail store's interpretation) is in reading "each successive aggregate period." That wording implies that, although the first chevron was apparently awarded on the qualifying date of embarkation for the upcoming twelvemonth, another (successive means following the one before it) period of twelve months had to elapse before awarding the second chevron. On the date of embarkation, a twelve-month period had not elapsed for the first, and would not elapse for a year. Therefore, the second chevron would not be awarded until approximately twenty-four months after the first. Antony

[Piorun]

I don't think we're disputing the "issue on embarkation" point. That seems clear enough and your post reinforces this (great document!). The issue is when the second one was awarded. Antony

[Muerrisch]

The problem (apart from accepting a retail store's interpretation) is in reading "each successive aggregate period." That wording implies that, although the first chevron was apparently awarded on the qualifying date of embarkation for the upcoming twelvemonth, another (successive means following the one before it) period of twelve months had to elapse before awarding the second chevron. On the date of embarkation, a twelve-month period had not elapsed for the first, and would not elapse for a year. Therefore, the second chevron would not be awarded until approximately twenty-four months after the first. Antony

You must believe what you will; as far as I am concerned, my old maths master told me if I come up with a nonsense answer, I must do it again.

I know nothing of the application of the Australian rules, and what I do know I have published.

In British service, as and when the chevrons were distributed in 1918 a man was awarded

a red one if he left UK on or before 2359/ 31/12/1914, and, provided his overseas service was continuous other than for the allowed exceptions, he qualified for another on each anniversary of embarkation. In the unusual but not unique circumstances of 1918/1919, the maximum was:

red 1914

blue 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, and 1919.

total six if he served on N Russia expedition.

[Piorun]

Trouble is, Grumpy, which one is a "nonsense answer"? All of them make sense. None of them is nonsense. Antony

[David B]

Courtesy of the web site 'Digger History'the link page covers the issue of overseas service chevrons as applied to the A.I.F. The regulations to be exactly the same as for the British Forces.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/qualification.htm

[Piorun]

Seems to be a problem with that link tonight, David. Antony

[David B]

Antony,

Works all right here If it won't come up you could google digger history and go to the badges page. Try again and if it doesn't come up I'll put it up again.

[Muerrisch]

as I see it my job as a serious studnt of military history is to provide researched and referenced facts. The facts are that the Aus. rules were much more complicated than "as British" as I have demonstrated. They later fell in line.

[Piorun]

Antony,

Works all right here If it won't come up you could google digger history and go to the badges page. Try again and if it doesn't come up I'll put it up again.

Strange! Google just keeps saying that Firefox can't find the server for diggerhistory. Frustrating. Antony

[David B]

Antony,

try this again. It works for me, then again I don't have anything to do with FF

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/qualification.htm

[Piorun]

Wont't even connect using IE. Oh, well. Antony

[Old Owl]

Hi All,

Not sure if this helps? but I have a 1914/15 Star Trio to a 10th Hussars officer who has three chevrons, 1 red and 2 blue. He arrived in France on 4/12/14, where he remained until 13/5/15, when he was wounded. He left his unit and was sent back to blighty the same day,13/5/15 and rejoined them upon his recovery, in France on 18/5/16. He remained with his unit then until 29/1/19, when presumably he was demobbed?

So by my reckoning he was in France 5 months prior to being wounded and the a further 32 months prior to his discharge:- Total 37 months = 3 chevrons? in round figures!!

Seems about spot on to me!!

Robert

[David B]

Antony,

I am at a loss to know why it won't work for you, no problems here. The full url is www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/qualification.htm Have you tried entering it manually ?