Highland Frock Question

[4thGordons]

I just picked up another example of a scarlet frock which has prompted a question in my mind regarding when these were phased out.

This was purchased from eBay and I was happy to see that when it arrived it had a mostly complete paper label in it. What suprised me was the date of production which appears to be 1913, this seems considerably later than I would have expected frocks (as opposed to the scarlet doublets) to be produced. I went through earlier posts (esp in Grumy's thread) but was unable to determine an answer.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me. The only pictures I have of Gordons in scarlet frocks of this nature seem to be considerably earlier.

Thanks

Chris

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

I can't answer the technical bits about the frock but here is one being worn in 1914, a Scottish version of Kitchener Blue no doubt. I can't tell the regiment but believe they must be lowland given they wear trousers and not the kilt so R Scots, RSFus or KOSB.

regards

John

[Joe Sweeney]

Chris,

Anything other than SD is not a strong area for me.

I did look in a few documents and Scarlet Frocks were still listed in the Priced Vocabulary in 1915 and in the 1914 Clothing Regs were listed as issue item for stations abroad (tunic for Home station) so Frocks would have been manufactured at the ACF until 1914 when production ceased.

Joe Sweeney

[4thGordons]

Thank you both very much indeed.

John - that is an excellent and interesting photo.

Joe - thanks. I am a bit puzzled as to why frocks would have been produced that late unless there was an order of dress in scots regiments that specified frocks as opposed to doublets? but nonetheless the fact that they still appear in the regs to that date resolves the question.

Thanks again.

Chris

[Lachlan]

The chap in the SD tunic interestingly doesn't have attached shoulder straps, so this maybe be the earlier version introduced not longer after the Boer War. Like the one in the photo, it had removable shoulder straps with attachment loops at the ends of the shoulders. The scarlet frock was of course in use pre-war. As I understand it, everyday and working dress in the 1900's was based around the khaki uniform. "Walking Out Dress" worn by regular British regiments pre-war used an undress tunic (the full dress tunic was too good to use) which for Lowland regiments may have been the frock as per the photo. Regular Highland regiments (including HLI) and Foot Guards wore white sleeved waistcoats (shell-jackets) for Walking Out. I don't think TF Highland units had the white shell-jacket.

Of course, early in WW1, Scottish regiments were as hard-hit as any other British units, for uniforming recruits. All manner of available uniforms, recent or old, were pressed into service, presenting a rather varied and colourful sight ! So an old style of khaki tunic and an obsolete scarlet frock were much in evidence. Note that the Glengarries do not yet have either their silk cockades or badges.

[Joe Sweeney]

Chris,

I think there was a order of dress for the Frocks--it was simply that for full Dress Frocks were worn oversesa instead of the Tunics(Doublets). Tunics weren't taken to over sears stations.

What I don't understand is why bother with the difference?

Joe

[squirrel]

Less wieght to allow for the hot climate?

[gordon92]

I just picked up another example of a scarlet frock which has prompted a question in my mind regarding when these were phased out.

This was purchased from eBay and I was happy to see that when it arrived it had a mostly complete paper label in it. What suprised me was the date of production which appears to be 1913, this seems considerably later than I would have expected frocks (as opposed to the scarlet doublets) to be produced. I went through earlier posts (esp in Grumy's thread) but was unable to determine an answer.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me. The only pictures I have of Gordons in scarlet frocks of this nature seem to be considerably earlier.

Thanks

Chris

Chris,

I found this old thread and thought I could more completely answer your questions about the red serge frock should this information still be relevant to you. It looks like a good garment, and it is proper for the Gordon Highlanders. I am surprised that the label indicates a date as late as 1913; by 1912 all newly produced frocks would normally have had the cuffs and shoulder straps in the regiment's facing color. I have a red frock in my collection; see photo below of GH Colour Sergeant (circa 1898) mannequin .

The red serge frock was the overseas review order dress for Highland and Lowland regiments, originally for all seasons; it was last worn in action in 1885 by the Cameron Highlanders in the Sudan. It became the cold weather review order garment after the white-drill frock was introduced for Highland regiments in the 1900-1905 period depending on regiment. The red frock was worn at home in undress by Lowland regiments until 1903 when it was superseded by service dress (Highland regiments continued to wear the short white drill-jacket until 1914, and the bands through the inter-war period). The red frock was an unlined garment, of simpler design and cheaper to produce than the full dress doublet; lining was, however, added for cold overseas stations such as North China. The red frock was withdrawn from use after the Great War, and I not think you would find it listed in the Clothing Regulations past the 1914 issue.

The evolution of the scarlet frock is a bit more complicated for officers who took their full dress doublets on overseas tour with them and wore doublets in cold weather review order, the scarlet frock being used primarily in hot weather until approximately 1900-1903 when replaced by the white-drill frocks. However, you will still find examples of officers' scarlet frocks made post-1903, and I have no explanation for that. The Dress Regulations for the Army, 1911 no longer mention the scarlet frock for officers.

Hope the above is of use if you have not already discovered this information in the interim.

Mike

[4thGordons]

Thanks. I had peiced together most of this but it is nice to have it confirmed and to have it all in one place.

I have now picked up a couple of different Doublets and Frocks - I kept finding them last year! I have yet to find a white drill jacket.

While I have you on - I have a related question regarding the colour of Gordons pipers' doublets were they always "archer green" or were there other variations (and if so what dates) and is there any system to the variation of shoulder shells one observes? I am primarily interested in the GW period and just immediately before but anything you can add would be of interest.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

I just picked up another example of a scarlet frock which has prompted a question in my mind regarding when these were phased out.

This was purchased from eBay and I was happy to see that when it arrived it had a mostly complete paper label in it. What suprised me was the date of production which appears to be 1913, this seems considerably later than I would have expected frocks (as opposed to the scarlet doublets) to be produced. I went through earlier posts (esp in Grumy's thread) but was unable to determine an answer.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me. The only pictures I have of Gordons in scarlet frocks of this nature seem to be considerably earlier.

Thanks

Chris

Frocks (of most types) were officially replaced by SD from 1902 onwards, but that did not occur overnight and was more of a phased thing. However, India Pattern (unlined) Frocks continued to be issued in India until war broke out in 1914.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks. I had peiced together most of this but it is nice to have it confirmed and to have it all in one place.

I have now picked up a couple of different Doublets and Frocks - I kept finding them last year! I have yet to find a white drill jacket.

While I have you on - I have a related question regarding the colour of Gordons pipers' doublets were they always "archer green" or were there other variations (and if so what dates) and is there any system to the variation of shoulder shells one observes? I am primarily interested in the GW period and just immediately before but anything you can add would be of interest.

Chris

Chris Archer Green for all Scottish infantry is a modern thing and was introduced for Public Duties in Scotland - before that I understand it was only worn as a form of undress by some pipers. It was not worn by Regular troops before 1914 (i.e. proper Full Dress) and they wore scarlet and dark blue as per the remainder of British infantry regiments, albeit that latterly (relative to uniform history) they wore doublets and inverness flaps on frocks.

[gordon92]

Thanks. I had peiced together most of this but it is nice to have it confirmed and to have it all in one place.

I have now picked up a couple of different Doublets and Frocks - I kept finding them last year! I have yet to find a white drill jacket.

While I have you on - I have a related question regarding the colour of Gordons pipers' doublets were they always "archer green" or were there other variations (and if so what dates) and is there any system to the variation of shoulder shells one observes? I am primarily interested in the GW period and just immediately before but anything you can add would be of interest.

Chris

Pipers of Highland regiments wore "piper green" doublets, a richer shade of green than the present archer green, through about 1952. This originated in the 1840s IIRC, originally by the 79th (green was the Camerons original facing color) with other regiments quickly adopting this shade of green for their pipers. Approx 1952, with the introduction of Number 1 dress, Highland regiments began wearing piper green coatees with the Lowland regiments adopting blue doublets. In 1981 Number 1 dress was regularized across Highland and Lowland regiments with the adoption of archer green doublets; archer green was therefore a compromise color between piper green and blue.

Regarding the Gordon shoulder shells, I will look through my pictures of Gordon pipers and post something on that tomorrow.

Mike

[4thGordons]

Pipers of Highland regiments wore "piper green" doublets, a richer shade of green than the present archer green, through about 1952. This originated in the 1840s IIRC, originally by the 79th (green was the Camerons original facing color) with other regiments quickly adopting this shade of green for their pipers. Approx 1952, with the introduction of Number 1 dress, Highland regiments began wearing piper green coatees with the Lowland regiments adopting blue doublets. In 1981 Number 1 dress was regularized across Highland and Lowland regiments with the adoption of archer green doublets; archer green was therefore a compromise color between piper green and blue.

Regarding the Gordon shoulder shells, I will look through my pictures of Gordon pipers and post something on that tomorrow.

Mike

Thanks Mike:

Here are three to illustrate 3 styles apparently all dating from 1910-1914

on a pre war photo

on a photo dated 1913

taken 1914

I have a Gordon's piper's doublet which I believe is probably 1930s vintage and it has the style shown on the second photo - which appear the most common.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Remember that for TF battalions there was flexibility after 1908: a soldier's two "suits" could be either [2xSD] or [1xSD and one of either tunic or frock] according to unit choice ............ all as I understand the regulations.

An example of a 1913 frock to a TF bn of RWF is in reserve collection at Caernarfon, for example.

I suspect almost all scarlet frock issues after 1903 [say] were for colonies or reserve formations. India pattern were issued on station by Indian govt. ..... soldiers travelled to India with a great deal of Home clothing [and the converse!].

[4thGordons]

As it is wet and suddenly cool I have been rummaging around in my photos

Couple of variations of frocks/doublets etc

I think this is probably a very early wartime image, collar appears to be the same colour as body of tunic

different colour cuffs but scarlet collar? (as above?) Appears from shoulder title to be a regular.

A variant with piping around the front and contrasting colour epaulettes, collars and cuffs

Only example I have seen of a doublet with an Imperial Service Badge on it. Is a bugle slung on those chords?

Chris

[Muerrisch]

I think number 4 is a drummer: so-called dress cords in green as non-royal regiment...

Even that is a problem: neither drummers' lace, nor wings, nor even a drum badge.

These things are sent to try us.

[gordon92]

Remember that for TF battalions there was flexibility after 1908: a soldier's two "suits" could be either [2xSD] or [1xSD and one of either tunic or frock] according to unit choice ............ all as I understand the regulations.

An example of a 1913 frock to a TF bn of RWF is in reserve collection at Caernarfon, for example.

I suspect almost all scarlet frock issues after 1903 [say] were for colonies or reserve formations. India pattern were issued on station by Indian govt. ..... soldiers travelled to India with a great deal of Home clothing [and the converse!].

Interesting. I did not realize the TF Bns had that choice.

Below is a (not too good) photo of Black Watch Militia Bn NCOs from 1882. It seems Colour Sgts were issued doublets with Sgts and below getting frocks.

[gordon92]

Thanks Mike:

Here are three to illustrate 3 styles apparently all dating from 1910-1914

on a pre war photo

on a photo dated 1913

taken 1914

I have a Gordon's piper's doublet which I believe is probably 1930s vintage and it has the style shown on the second photo - which appear the most common.

Chris

Chris,

For simplicity, let us refer to the shoulder shells in two categories: the ribbed pattern (your photo #2) and the scalloped pattern of which there are several variants (your photos #1 and #3).

The earliest example I could find of the ribbed pattern in my archives is 1932 (see example below), and I believe this pattern persisted until 1994; see second example below taken 1958 in Dover.

So, it would seem that the ribbed pattern made an initial appearance in 1913, probably only in the 2nd Bn, and likely in both Bns by the inter-war period. More in next message.

[gordon92]

Now for the scalloped pattern variants. See below for three examples with a fourth in another message.

1GH Pipe Major c1890.

2GH Piper c1890

1GH at Bexill-On-Sea 1912

[gordon92]

The last one is the 1GH in 1914. The Pipe Major is the renowned George MacLennan. Notice that MacLennan wears a more elaborate scalloped pattern while his pipers have a simplified version.

So, I think the real answer here is that the shoulder shells were decided by the Pipes Committee in each battalion according to their whims which changed from time-to-time. Or, it may have even been the battalion CO (if he was interested); at this time the Bn CO was a law unto himself not especially encumbered by Army or Regimental regulations as regards details of dress.

That is my best shot at the shoulder shell question, Chris.

Mike

[gordon92]

One more: Five Highland pipe majors at the Highland Brigade Gathering at Agra, India 1912. Center-front is PM MacLeod of the 2GH. Notice the quite elaborate double-scalloped shells.

[FROGSMILE]

This is a very interesting thread and has epitomised the strengths (and some would say weaknesses) of the British infantry's regimental system, whereby commanding officers could exercise a degree of independence in certain forms of dress. I believe that what you describe as the ribbed wings appear to be the standard line infantry pattern. The scalloped types appear to be obtained under regimental arrangements as you have pointed out.

[Graham Stewart]

Regulations for the Territorial Force 1912

Uniform - N.C.Os. and Men

Para 479 - Walking-out dress will consist of tunic or frock, trousers or trews, forage or glengarry cap. Highland units authorized to wear the kilt may provide the kilt and plaid, sporran and white spats, instead of trousers or trews.

[gordon92]

This is a very interesting thread and has epitomised the strengths (and some would say weaknesses) of the British infantry's regimental system, whereby commanding officers could exercise a degree of independence in certain forms of dress. I believe that what you describe as the ribbed wings appear to be the standard line infantry pattern. The scalloped types appear to be obtained under regimental arrangements as you have pointed out.

Your point about the standard line infantry pattern wings (which I described as the ribbed pattern), FROGSMILE, is, I think, quite significant to this discussion. Highland battalions had an authorized strength of six pipers to be dressed at the public expense. As these battalions usually paraded 15-20 pipers during the pre-1914 period, who was to pick up the bill for dress of the excess pipers? Why the officers, of course. Each officer made a contribution to the Pipe Fund for these matters that were paid for regimentally. It is not surpising then that the officers exercised their preference over the dress detail of their pipers (including shoulder wings) who regularly performed in the officers mess on guest nights. Much of this is explained by David Murray in Music of the Scottish Regiments.

At least for the Gordon Highlanders, a changover to the standard line infantry pattern wings seems to have occurred by the inter-war period. The British officer corps by that time had become more egalitarian with a consequent lesser ability and inclination to contribute to the Pipe Fund from personal finances. This appears to be, from my perspective, a rational explanation for the adoption of the standard line infantry wings.

I will look at piper photos of the other Highland regiments over the next day or so to see if the same transition may be evident.

[Muerrisch]

Regulations for the Territorial Force 1912

Uniform - N.C.Os. and Men

Para 479 - Walking-out dress will consist of tunic or frock, trousers or trews, forage or glengarry cap. Highland units authorized to wear the kilt may provide the kilt and plaid, sporran and white spats, instead of trousers or trews.

and 1908:

541. The provision of SD is compulsory .........

546. two suits of uniform will be provided ...... one of which must be SD ...........

547. as 479 above.

thus, scarlet frocks and Scots equivalent abounded between 1902 and 1914 ........... and cheaper than tunics of course.