John Cubin Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Happily, the undergrowth was just beginning to thicken up, so I didn't hit this one a kick. Not being prepared (ex-Boy Scout : says it all),I had nothing to measure it by bar a sheet of A4 paper, so it is roughly 24 inches long overall. I reckoned the diameter was 7 inches, but that is also subject to correction. The only mark visible on the fuze is R(Arrow)E. The E is debatable and I wasn't inclined to roll it over to see the other side. (I might have journeyed to the other side rather sooner than I wish) Some brave/foolhardy soul has made off with the drive band and the marks on the fuze might have been from an attempt to remove the fuze. On the other hand, the visible threads could also suggest that the fuze was not properly screwed home and hence the beast didn't go off. To satisfy my curiosity, would someone like to identify this shell, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 The fuze marking is "RL" for Royal Laboratory, Woolwich. My guess is either a 6 inch or 8 inch howitzer HE shell, but I'm not an artillery specialist. I will leave it to others! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 29 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2011 The fuze marking is "RL" for Royal Laboratory, Woolwich. My guess is either a 6 inch or 8 inch howitzer HE shell, but I'm not an artillery specialist. I will leave it to others! Regards TonyE Thank you, Tony. I'd tend towards the 8-inch. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 I'm always intrigued by the lack of driving bands on many shells and whether they have all been intenionally removed. As an experiment I have tried to remove driving bands from a variety of empty shells and it is very very difficult, it takes some work not only to get through the band but to then prise them off is even harder, this isn't a 5 minute job and I am built for and quite good at brute force dismantling. None of the shells without driving bands I have looked at have the tool marks I left behind when working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruilooze Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 I once found a shell on a beach that had a split driving band ,It was quite loose. I wondered whether expansion of the steel caused by corrosion had split the band. This however would not explain the many shells with missing bands, a couple of years ago,not far from Messines, I found a pile of about 50 shrapnel cases all missing their drivebands. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 I think that most of the large-calibre shells I've found have lost their driving bands. I believe that with larger shells, it was common for the bands to fly off due to centrifugal force when the spinning shell left the barrel. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Was there an 8" Howitzer, I thought it was 6" and 9.2" ? As to the absence of driving bands, I always thought that the locals over the years scavenged the copper as it's always been a valuable metal, and corrosion may have eroded what tool marks there may have been? Remembering all the mainly 18pr shells I saw along the roadsides when I visited the Somme years ago, very few of them seemed to have driving bands, so they either had a tendency to fly off or they were removed later? I've just had a close look at my 18pr without a driving band and the level of corrosion in the band groove is significantly less than the rest of the case and I have noticed that there are 3 shallow cut marks were a chisel has been used to cut the band, my shell is shell is empty, but it wouldn't surprise me if they also did it to ones with the fuze intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 John You don't say what country this is in. Presumably you notified the relevant authorities? (before the undergrowth gets long enough for someone to actually kick it!). Or are you somewhere where these are too common a sight to warrant a second glance? Not getting all high horsey, just wondering what you did! Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 A genuine question - what is a drive band? I know very little about ammunition etc. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Roger, A drive band is the copper / brass ring usually found at the base of the actual shell. It fitted tightly in the barrel of the gun and when fired it was forced by the rifling in the barrel to start spinning and this gave the shell accuray and direct flight. Some shells had two bands and some but not many three (usually German motar rounds). A shell with a smooth band is considered unfired and if the band is grooved then fired as it has passed through the barrel of a gun. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 TT Many thanks. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Thank you, Tony. I'd tend towards the 8-inch. John. I bet you say that to all the girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Only the ones that are easily pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 The amount of pressure required for compressing the copper driving band depends largely upon the width and thickness and the amount the band must be spread to fill the grooves, rather than upon the diameter of the shell. The machine which is used has six segments or dies, and at the back of each die is a hydraulic cylinder operated by oil or water pressure to a pressure of 30 tons per square inch. After the first squeeze the pressure is released the shell is rotated a quarter of a turn and pressure is reapplied to 30 tons a square inch, the driving band is then ready for machining. These notes are applicable to an 18 Pdr. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 I'm just like Roger - ignorant but highly curious! Any chance of a photo showing a shell with the drive band intact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 It looks as if it is a 100 fuze with the absence of a Knurled Band, the 100 Fuze was noted for its poor record of blinds due to bad manufacture, later converted to 101 and modified even further to the very successful 106 and 106E Fuze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Here is close up of an 18 Pdr H. E. round unfired Driving Band. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 John Interesting. Do you have a picture of the whole shell to put it into perspective? Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 All images posted by me are inert. Length 21.5 inches. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 John Thanks for taking the trouble to post that. All is now clear! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Yes. Thanks John. Am I right in thinking that the second photo with the ribbed drive band shows one that has been fired, whilst the first is, as you say, an unfired one? Once fired, did the band remain attached to the shell or fall off in mid air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 John can confirm it, but from my other 18pr with an intact driving band it is a one piece band of copper which is pressed into a groove on the shell case which has wavey lines moulded into it to prevent it rotating when fired; there seems to be no reason why it should come off in flight. You can see the mark from the chisel where the band was removed from this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 March , 2011 Share Posted 29 March , 2011 Although copper is a noble metal and on its own is highly resistant to corrosion it can under the appropriate conditions react with many other metals. One of these is carbon steel (a common material for shell cases) when a galvanic reaction can be set up when water containing common dissolved salts or acids is also present (this sensitivity to galvanic and electrolytic reactions is why copper is used in battery technology and electro plating). It is very probable that after nearly a hundred years lying in the ground many driving bands are missing from this cause. This doesn't of course preclude some having been removed for salvage but it would be incautious (or in laymans terms -ing stupid) to assume that because a driving band is missing a shell must be inert because it would otherwise have gone off when the driving band was chiselled off. Of course there are always those shortlisted for the Darwin Prize who will ignore this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 30 March , 2011 Share Posted 30 March , 2011 To add to Centurions post, given the amount of work needed to chisel a driving band off, anyone daft enough to attempt it on a live shell for the amount of scrap each one gives up must have been in desperate straights. But all that being said they did, on the whole, leave the fuze end of the live ones. These days there are a lot of locals including whole families who walk the fields collecting scrap I wonder if the practice continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cubin Posted 30 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2011 Hello all. Interesting comments on driving bands. I, too, thought the missing ones had simply been salvaged. Having a closer look at another photo I took of the subject, the cut marks can be clearly seen. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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