1917 SMLE (new acquistion)

[shippingsteel]

Nice.! I'm sure Sgt. Carlisle would approve of its extremely clean condition ...

Cheers, S>S

[alex falbo]

[4thGordons]

Interesting combination of features on this one.

The forend is an earlier slimmer type still shaped/contoured swell for the front plate of the volley sight as opposed to the chunkier wartime style which you might expect to see on a 1917 rifle. This is inateresting too because the wood seems high-cut (ie covers the area of the cut-off slot.

As mentioned F.R. is usually an Indian mark signifying Factory Refinish (Britain apears to have used FTR almsot exclusivley) - although I have to say the barrel band (as a minor component and easily removed) is a very odd place to stamp and I don't think I have seen that before. It is usually stamped into the metal wrist of the rifle below the safety. (Although some late (post WWII) British FTRs on No1 rifles have it electro-pencilled into the reciever wall)

The trimmed fingers on the handguard are usually associated with later Indian service too. Although I have never actually seen original documentation of that in this isntance the observed data on my part is overwhelming. By the same token of all the hundreds and hundreds of photographic images of WWI SMLEs I have looked at, I believe I have seen only one where I thought the fingers may have been trimmed or broken, so I do not believe this would have been common (if it were known at all) during the Great War.

I believe the six pointed star and E are an enfield rebuild/inspection mark - This too is very interesting as these are common on Pattern 14 rifles and are usually taken as indicative of passing through the WRS (Weedon Repair Standard) Programme in the late 1930s, as the rifles were removed from War Reserve storage and readied for issue in the impeding conflict. I am not sure I have seen such a mark on a SMLE of this vintage.

So all in all a very nice example indeed, congratualtions! Personally I am not to keen on the varnish (the original finish would have been linseed oil, thus far less glossy) but the metalwork looks very nice - apart from the total loss of blue on the FT stamped band which is an odd place to wear that much.

Thanks for posting the pics.

Chris

[alex falbo]

@ S>S..Indeed, he was quite pleased with it.

@ Chris....My pleasure. The band could have been replaced at any point. I thought the the forend looked slightly thinner myself. And this would make sense. The wood was most likely surplus from earlier stocks that were fitted in 1917 when this piece was produced. The blancoed sling came with it along with a P07 bayonet stamped 1908 complete with scabbard and unblancoed frog. The bayonet was part of a deal in which the total cost for blade and rifle was $350. The dealer, who actually specializes in American Civil War militaria) had apparently inherited a collection weapons from an estate and was willing to move the items for $50 less than the original price. I would have preferred an unvarnished piece myself..however! It looks beautiful as is so no complaints from me. And I'm most glad that its an almost completely original wartime piece that still functions!

[4thGordons]

.... along with a P07 bayonet stamped 1908 complete with scabbard and unblancoed frog.

I (and I suspect at least one other person) would be interested in seeing pictures of the bayonet/markings. 1908 is a very early example!

I'd happily swap you a nice 1917 example to match your rifle my 1908 MkIII is without a match ...I'd even varnish the handle for you

Chris

[alex falbo]

Hang about and I'll get a pic up in few minutes

[shippingsteel]

I (and I suspect at least one other person) would be interested in seeing pictures of the bayonet/markings. 1908 is a very early example!

Chris

You suspect right ....

PS. Can't be too frivolous here, what ..... by joves that star over E marking looks to be the conjoined letters EFD, if I'm not mistaken ...

EDIT. Yes I believe the conjoined letters of EFD was used as an inspection symbol by RSAF Enfield.

Cheers, S>S

[alex falbo]

@ S>S Is that an Enfield marking?

The pics. Made by Wilkinson...

Does the GR under the crown represent George V? George's reign began in '10 so its interesting that the stamp is on a 1908 piece unless that year is marked incorrectly.

[alex falbo]

[4thGordons]

Awwwwww....

I think that is an '18 (making date of manufacture November 1918)not '08

I believe I can see the base of the 1.overlaid on the 7 of 1907 (late war stamping seems typically sloppy like this)

there appears to be an Australian property mark (broad arrow in a D) on the pommel just behind the clearance hole.

Chris

(edited to remove duplicate line!)

Edited 31 March , 2011 by 4thGordons

[alex falbo]

My apologies for getting you riled up! I had my doubts considering the GR stamp. So was it issued to the Aussie's or did it find itself in postwar Australian markets?

[shippingsteel]

I agree that it is unfortunately just an '18, you can't get THAT lucky you know, I thought the nice rifle would be enough to ask.!!

The combination of the GR cypher/crown and the very poor stamping, both indicate a late war manufacture, albeit a very important month though, 11 / '18.!

The D arrow indicates issue to Australian forces at some stage, while the AUSTRALIA stamped on the grip shows it was imported into the US as milsurp.

Pretty nice bayonet all the same. I like to collect these ones stamped with the Australian ownership marks - for obvious reasons.!

Cheers, S>S

[alex falbo]

@S>S I certainly can understand! I don't mind a bit that its a 1918 piece. But I'll tell you, that antique's arms show had enough bayonets that an '08 sword could easily have been found. This is only the start of a collection I'm going to work on. I've learned a lot about identifying the weapons as well as their functions. So I'm very satisfied with my first foray. It augments a detail about the Tommy's life and my knowledge of the Great War so it suits me.

[18th Battalion]

Alex, you certainly got lucky with that rifle, great condition. I'm surprised that it could be successfully coated with varnish as my one sweated linseed oil for months after I got it, I had to wipe every few days with a paper towel.

[alex falbo]

Thanks 18th! Your story reminds me of how the bayonet I have was covered in some sort of oil that has gunked up the scabbard too. I gave the blade a clean but I fear cleaning out the rest of the scabbard is almost impossible.

As for the rifle, I actually like the way the SMLE looks with and without varnish. To quote Martin Pegler from his work on sniping in the War "fitted into fine walnut stocks, neither the early war production Mauser or the Enfield rifles would have disgraced the gunroom of a British or German country house." I will never deface history by lacquering one myself though. I do love a piece of history that still can perform its original task. I must admit I'm very proud of this rifle (particularly since its my first go).

Gloating aside, I'm still curious as to the origin of the cocking piece. B80 is stamped on it which would indicate that its BSA made. However that serial is also stamped on the barrel near the breach along with the N6253 serial which spans the weapon.

[4thGordons]

Gloating aside, I'm still curious as to the origin of the cocking piece. B80 is stamped on it which would indicate that its BSA made. However that serial is also stamped on the barrel near the breach along with the N6253 serial which spans the weapon.

I am not sure that the B80 indicates BSA made - I do not know what it indicates.

the thing that indicated BSA to me was the BSA inspection mark behind it (the small stamp incorporating the number and the script B).

If I had to guess at the meaning of B80 given it is on both the barrel and the bolt assembly, I might suggest it is something to do with a rebuild/FTR process where the the two assemblies were numbered to allow the matched parts to be remated more easily after passing through inspections etc. I have seen reference to "assembly numbers" on other FTR'd rifles. This would be a pure guess.

Chris

[alex falbo]

By "B" script do you mean the B preceding the 80? or the smaller B under the crown? I was referring to your post when stating the above.

[4thGordons]

By "B" script do you mean the B preceding the 80? or the smaller B under the crown? I was referring to your post when stating the above.

The smaller B under the crown.

Chris

[alex falbo]

Thanks for the clarificaton Chirs.

Incidentally, I'm about to purchase .303 stripper clips. I was curious if there is a method for identifying ones of Great War vintage. And as a side note, did Tommies keep these clips or would they discard? I realize it can be circumstantial but how about general practice...

This place seems to have what appears to be surplus.Surplus charger clips Apparently this vendor claims to have some original Great War dated and regimentally marked breach covers as well for sale.

Sorry about the thread veering a bit. I figured it would be better to consolidate my queries in one place instead of mucking up the board

[Garron]

I think they are mk3 chargers so could be WW1. I know there are various marks of chargers and TonyE is the man for this, I'm sure he posted a picture a while ago showing each type and when introduced. Cant remember what thread it was in sadly.

On a side note, a clip is retained in the firearm when in use such as the Mannlicher design, a charger just fills the magazine and then can be discarded. Thanks to Hollywood every things known as a clip

Gaz

[shippingsteel]

I have a question for the Enfield expert/s regarding the stamping of the serial numbers onto the different components of the rifles.

The obvious overstamping of the date on the bayonet that Alex posted got me thinking about where I had seen that before - and the penny has now finally dropped.!

Given the Enfield enthusiasts stated desire to obtain 'matching' numbered rifles as a collecting ideal, the cynic in me must now raise the question - Can these be somehow 'improvised'.?

If you look back at the photos in the original post you can clearly see the serial number (N6253) stamped on the receiver and barrel in what looks to be the same font letter, numerals, etc.

Both of the serials appear to have partially overstamped another marking. And these underlying markings are obviously much later period ie. the ENGLAND import mark and the British civilian proof.

I am not implying anything by this question as I am not certain how these things are supposed to work, but I'd be very interested in what should be the 'normal' chronological order for the markings.

Cheers, S>S

[alex falbo]

Thanks to Hollywood every things known as a clip

Yes this is true. It actually is one of the few things that irritates me when watching films and talking with casual folks about it. I've heard the charger referenced as a stripper clip outside of films so (albeit incorrectly) that's what I was basing my terminology on.

I'll have a shufti through the forum to locate the thread or just ask the blighter directly

If you look back at the photos in the original post you can clearly see the serial number (N6253) stamped on the receiver and barrel in what looks to be the same font letter, numerals, etc.

Both of the serials appear to have partially over-stamped another marking. And these underlying markings are obviously much later period i.e. the ENGLAND import mark and the British civilian proof.

I think the third and for snaps reveal that the modern marks are noticeably shallower than the original markings, If you examine VERY carefully the second slide, you can see a little lip created by the 'L' of 'ENGLAND' over lapping the '2' in the serial. The other parts also match up. I would imagine that if the serials were forged on the various parts we would see some evidence of their original number's attempted removal or cover up. The font styles and depths from the wrist to bayonet lug match.Just my thoughts.

[4thGordons]

Could serial numbers be faked? Yes, obviously.

Have they ever been faked? Yes, almost certainly.

Are they commonly/routinely/frequently faked? My sense is no, in general the amount they would raise the value of a rifle to a collector is, ceterus parabus, unlikely to make it worthwhile, especially on a mid-war MkIII*. It is far more likely that spurious unit markings would be added to a bayonet or a unit marking disk because of the significant increase in price such markings could generate.

Are they faked in this case? In my opinion absolutley no and I disagree that there is even the appearance of this.

[shippingsteel]

I think the third and for snaps reveal that the modern marks are noticeably shallower than the original markings, If you examine VERY carefully the second slide, you can see a little lip created by the 'L' of 'ENGLAND' over lapping the '2' in the serial. The other parts also match up. I would imagine that if the serials were forged on the various parts we would see some evidence of their original number's attempted removal or cover up. The font styles and depths from the wrist to bayonet lug match.Just my thoughts.

Yes Alex, you may well be right. Thanks for the replies Chris. I'm definitely not inferring anything - just very curious, thats all.!

Another question, is restamping of the bayonet lug commonly seen and was this a routine procedure carried out by armourers.?

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Nosepiece's / bayonet boss are frequently renumbered, although more frequently in FTRs than anywhere else I think.

Some later Australian (Lithgow) FTR's in the 50s seem to have actually machined the numbers off the bayonet boss as you can sometimes see the circular machining marks.

The other piece that is often renumbered is the rear sight (on the underside) here the old number is usually lined out.

Bolt handles are also renumbered, the rear flat refiled flat and numbers stamped into them - this is sometimes referred to as "forced matching" although I am not sure what is "forced" about it.

Australian Military district marked rifles often have an additional serial number added (sometimes referred to as an acceptance or inventory number) in addition to the original serial. Some Indian FTRs strike out original serials and add new ones. One of the common elements to all of these is it is very, very obvious - no attempt is made to hide it. Serial numbers are usually stamped quite deeply onto the receiver and the barrel - and a lot of metal would have to be removed to obliterate them - the chances of this failing to erase proofs etc or going unnoticed are minimal. Bolt handles and noes pieces would be the easiest to remove/alter.

As to who did this, I suspect not usually at the unit level but in FTR and salvage programs certainly.

A greater concern for collectors and more importantly shooters (although less so in the UK with the proofing process and more rigorously controlled market) is the removal or hiding of DP marks (Drill Purpose). Rifles were downgraded to DP when they were no longer considered safe to fire - all notion of clearances and standards were abandoned and they became simply an assembly of bits for cadets/recruits to drill with. These were stamped DP in many places and often a coloured stripe (white in the UK, Red-white-red in India and yellow(drill but ok for emergency use) or red (do not fire) in Australia, was painted around the stock. Sometimes the firing pin was snipped (Aust) and sometimes the chamber drilled (Indian) but often not. Huge numbers of these have been sold off in recent years and many - through ignorance or unscrupulousness have found their way back onto the US market as "shooters". Obscuring or removing these marks will turn a $75 weapon into a $200 item, but one with the potential to be very dangerous indeed to the prospective shooter and those around him or her. There is some debate over the safety or otherwise of all DP marked weapons, particularly early ones actually - although unless you are a qualified professional gunsmith I wouldn't trust myself to make the call...I like all my bits and would not shoot one ...and under no circumstances should such markings be removed as that denies others the chance to make that informed choice.

Chris