Uniform identification?

[FROGSMILE]

and the Field Cap.

[Gill33]

Gosh many thanks again for the help and suggestions here! I eventually managed to find his British Army WW1 pension record. Seems that he was in the 3rd Reserve Battalion of the MGC no 36199. He enlisted on 3.9.1914 as a sergeant (his last employment was working as a ship steward for the H.M. Merchant Service). I think that he probably discharged himself from the Ox & Bucks in order to bring his children home (family hear say told me that his wife left him for an officer while he was India perhaps after the birth of his last child in 1909 during the 2 years he was away in Burma as he only returned to India for 6 months before discharging himself) I should love to know what happened to Louisa Ellen but I expect that will remain a mystery.

While in the MGC from 1914 he served in Camiers (via F'stone to B'logne) between 27.7.16 and 21.7.17 but then was posted to Granthan as a wing coy with the 6th Battalion. On 9.11.18 after a very serious attack of pneumonia he was transferred the 8th Reserve Battalion in Rugely/Regeley? or perhaps Rugby (writing difficult to read). He was finally transferred to class Z Army Reserves on demobilization on 26.2.19

I may try to get his record for the time he served with the Ox & Bucks as it may have more detail than Chelsea Pension record and I may try to get copies of the relevant pages of the Ox & Bucks regimental diary in order to try and get a picture of Ox & Bucks activities during this period (seems very little detail up on the internet). The MGC links that you sent plus badge and cap images look very interesting too!

Thanks again.

Gill

[FROGSMILE]

Gosh many thanks again for the help and suggestions here! I eventually managed to find his British Army WW1 pension record. Seems that he was in the 3rd Reserve Battalion of the MGC no 36199. He enlisted on 3.9.1914 as a sergeant (his last employment was working as a ship steward for the H.M. Merchant Service). I think that he probably discharged himself from the Ox & Bucks in order to bring his children home (family hear say told me that his wife left him for an officer while he was India perhaps after the birth of his last child in 1909 during the 2 years he was away in Burma as he only returned to India for 6 months before discharging himself) I should love to know what happened to Louisa Ellen but I expect that will remain a mystery.

While in the MGC from 1914 he served in Camiers (via F'stone to B'logne) between 27.7.16 and 21.7.17 but then was posted to Granthan as a wing coy with the 6th Battalion. On 9.11.18 after a very serious attack of pneumonia he was transferred the 8th Reserve Battalion in Rugely/Regeley? or perhaps Rugby (writing difficult to read). He was finally transferred to class Z Army Reserves on demobilization on 26.2.19

I may try to get his record for the time he served with the Ox & Bucks as it may have more detail than Chelsea Pension record and I may try to get copies of the relevant pages of the Ox & Bucks regimental diary in order to try and get a picture of Ox & Bucks activities during this period (seems very little detail up on the internet). The MGC links that you sent plus badge and cap images look very interesting too!

Thanks again.

Gill

Gill, although there was a Motor Machine Gun Service (administered by the Royal Artillery) from November 1914, the 'Machine Gun Corps' per se was not formed until September 1915, so given that he enlisted in September 1914, it would seem that he must have served in some other regiment first.

The natural place for him to have first gone on re-enlistment would have been the Oxf & Bucks and they are more likely to have accepted him as a sergeant than some unit in which he had never served and was unknown (I hope that makes sense). Your research should reveal his first unit in Sep 14, it could not have been the MGC.

Camiers, Grantham and Rugely (Staffs) were all bases of the MGC so that fits with his service as an instructor, a natural role for him given his experience as a Regular Army musketry instructor pre-war.

As regards Louisa Ellen, if you have the marriage certificate and can ascertain her date and place of birth, then I imagine you might be able to trace her from later Census Records. I doubt that she would have stayed in India indefinitely.

[Cossack Wolf]

Out of interest, when did the Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry rank insignia change from the 4 stripes to 3 with the crown? I have several Victorian & pre-1905 pics of my Great-grandfather with that rank & he always had the 4 stripes with the crown & crossed rifles above it.

regards....Andy

[Muerrisch]

A good question.Royal Warrant 1856 created School of Musketry. Sergeant Instructors First Class wore the same badge as Sergeant major, indeed croossed muskets, crown, and 4 chevrons.

The other possible exceptions to the 3 bar norm which obtained in the regular line infantry were:

the Foot Guards [as ever] and the Volunteer Force.

Without a date or a photo to work from, I am a little stuck to offer more right now.

[Cossack Wolf]

He was an RMLI Musketry-Instructor then Volunteer Battalion one, it's just very interesting to see how the rank insignias vary. I have a pic of him taken in 1903/4 where he is then wearing Col-Sergt sash & crown on his lower left sleeve but still in the Vol Batt so assuming there must have been a change of rank/insignia around this time?

[FROGSMILE]

He was an RMLI Musketry-Instructor then Volunteer Battalion one, it's just very interesting to see how the rank insignias vary. I have a pic of him taken in 1903/4 where he is then wearing Col-Sergt sash & crown on his lower left sleeve but still in the Vol Batt so assuming there must have been a change of rank/insignia around this time?

With a crown on lower sleeves after 1881 he would have been a Warrant Officer and the battalions Sergeant Major (now known as RSM). Sashes were/are worn by Warrant Officers in full dress.

[Cossack Wolf]

With a crown on lower sleeves after 1881 he would have been a Warrant Officer and the battalions Sergeant Major (now known as RSM).

Hi Bob,

That's the picture I sent you via e-mail with the odd looking collar badges!

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Bob,

That's the picture I sent you via e-mail with the odd looking collar badges!

Yes, I realised that, I just wanted to check up on a few things before sending you a full and considered reply...but you are understandably impatient !

The Large Crown was first used 1882 - 1915. In 1882, an order introducing the badges to be worn by the second batch of Warrant Officers, stated that they would not wear chevrons. The final choice of the Crown as the badge of Warrant Officers within this second tranche was more than likely adopted due to the fact that the majority of Staff Serjeants First Class already wore one above a four-bar chevron. Virtually all that occurred was that the wearing of the chevrons was discontinued.

[Muerrisch]

He was an RMLI Musketry-Instructor then Volunteer Battalion one, it's just very interesting to see how the rank insignias vary. I have a pic of him taken in 1903/4 where he is then wearing Col-Sergt sash & crown on his lower left sleeve but still in the Vol Batt so assuming there must have been a change of rank/insignia around this time?

RMLI = RN not army so G is out of his depth.

I got the VB bit right.

There was no major relevant change in rank insignia around 1903/4.

The sash was/ is the sole prerogative of infantry full sergeants and above, issued in two qualities, the better one to WO II and WO I; the lesser one comes out scarlet, the superior towards crimson. Clothing Regs make no distinction, I shall check with PVCN later. Suspect the usual quality drift for the senior ranks!

[FROGSMILE]

RMLI = RN not army so G is out of his depth.

I got the VB bit right.

There was no major relevant change in rank insignia around 1903/4.

The sash was/ is the sole prerogative of infantry full sergeants and above, issued in two qualities, the better one to WO II and WO I; the lesser one comes out scarlet, the superior towards crimson. Clothing Regs make no distinction, I shall check with PVCN later. Suspect the usual quality drift for the senior ranks!

My only caveat with this is that for many years now, only WO1 ranking soldiers have worn the superior quality sash of crimson shade. If WOs 2 ever wore it, and they might well have done in the early days after 1915 (but never with khaki until the 1920s), then I would be very interested to know when it changed. It had certainly changed by WW2, when all infantry seniors up to the rank of WO2 wore the scarlet worsted sash, usually tweaked by the battalion tailor to create a subtle but smart 'bow effect' at the hip.

N.B. Prior to the introduction of Warrant Rank to the infantry, First Class Staff Serjeants did seem to have worn the superior quality sash, but along with other dress distinctions, this seems to have changed gradually after 1915 with only the senior level of Warrant Officer being so marked out by the 1920s, although some distinctions were clung on to by junior warrant officers in the line cavalry and Service Support Corps (AOC/ASC). This continues to be a grey area to this day.

[Muerrisch]

My only caveat with this is that for many years now, only WO1 ranking soldiers have worn the superior quality sash of crimson shade. If WOs 2 ever wore it, and they might well have done in the early days after 1915 (but never with khaki until the 1920s), then I would be very interested to know when it changed. It had certainly changed by WW2, when all infantry seniors up to the rank of WO2 wore the scarlet worsted sash, usually tweaked by the battalion tailor to create a subtle but smart 'bow effect' at the hip.

N.B. Prior to the introduction of Warrant Rank to the infantry, First Class Staff Serjeants did seem to have worn the superior quality sash, but along with other dress distinctions, this seems to have changed gradually after 1915 with only the senior level of Warrant Officer being so marked out by the 1920s, although some distinctions were clung on to by junior warrant officers in the line cavalry and Service Support Corps (AOC/ASC). This continues to be a grey area to this day.

I have the full Priced Vocabs for 1907 and for 1913 in front of me. 1913 prices.

974. sash sik WO and Staff Sergeants 10/- [a week's wages for a labourer]

975. sash worsted sergeants 1/8- [which in context I believe includes colour sergeants other than those in "staff" appointments.

The logic of this is that WO II, when created in 1915, had a legitimate case for "reserved rights" if they had been in "staff" appointments such as RQMS, ORQMS; but not those WOII at CSM level.

[FROGSMILE]

I have the full Priced Vocabs for 1907 and for 1913 in front of me. 1913 prices.

974. sash sik WO and Staff Sergeants 10/- [a week's wages for a labourer]

975. sash worsted sergeants 1/8- [which in context I believe includes colour sergeants other than those in "staff" appointments.

The logic of this is that WO II, when created in 1915, had a legitimate case for "reserved rights" if they had been in "staff" appointments such as RQMS, ORQMS; but not those WOII at CSM level.

That makes complete sense Grumpy. It's rather sad that it no longer applies, grandfather's rights having long since passed on. Yet another example of niggardly accountants who understand the 'cost' of everything but the 'value' of nothing.

[Gill33]

Gill, although there was a Motor Machine Gun Service (administered by the Royal Artillery) from November 1914, the 'Machine Gun Corps' per se was not formed until September 1915, so given that he enlisted in September 1914, it would seem that he must have served in some other regiment first.

The natural place for him to have first gone on re-enlistment would have been the Oxf & Bucks and they are more likely to have accepted him as a sergeant than some unit in which he had never served and was unknown (I hope that makes sense). Your research should reveal his first unit in Sep 14, it could not have been the MGC.

Camiers, Grantham and Rugely (Staffs) were all bases of the MGC so that fits with his service as an instructor, a natural role for him given his experience as a Regular Army musketry instructor pre-war.

As regards Louisa Ellen, if you have the marriage certificate and can ascertain her date and place of birth, then I imagine you might be able to trace her from later Census Records. I doubt that she would have stayed in India indefinitely.

[Gill33]

Thank you Frogsmile! Sadly, I cannot find WW1 service records for this Edward Watson (I have found records for other Edward Watson's including some burnt records) but I suspect that you are correct about re-enlisting in the Ox and Bucks L.I. as the pension record quotes a previous number 9180 for the Ox and Bucks and this is not the same as his original Ox and Bucks number 36199 from his first enlistment . The pension record also mentioned that he enlisted as a drill instructor and while in France was a P.T. Instructor (special duties) so I guess he gave instruction in both P.T and MG instruction during his service with the MGC. He appears to have received a modified service pension of 1/- per day after a bout of illness including losing a good deal of his sight (temporarily I hope) as I believe that he joined the Fire Brigade after the war.

Louisa Ellen is not in the 1911 census - the most recent census open to the public. Most probably she had not returned to the UK by this date or perhaps if she did she may have taken another name so I shall have to wait another 10 years before the next census 1921 is open to the public to view!

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Frogsmile! Sadly, I cannot find WW1 service records for this Edward Watson (I have found records for other Edward Watson's including some burnt records) but I suspect that you are correct about re-enlisting in the Ox and Bucks L.I. as the pension record quotes a previous number 9180 for the Ox and Bucks and this is not the same as his original Ox and Bucks number 36199 from his first enlistment . The pension record also mentioned that he enlisted as a drill instructor and while in France was a P.T. Instructor (special duties) so I guess he gave instruction in both P.T and MG instruction during his service with the MGC. He appears to have received a modified service pension of 1/- per day after a bout of illness including losing a good deal of his sight (temporarily I hope) as I believe that he joined the Fire Brigade after the war.

Louisa Ellen is not in the 1911 census - the most recent census open to the public. Most probably she had not returned to the UK by this date or perhaps if she did she may have taken another name so I shall have to wait another 10 years before the next census 1921 is open to the public to view!

His second service number with the Oxf & Bucks would confirm his re-enlistment with them in my view. The natural role of a returned reservist, or a time-expired man returning to the Colours, who has valuable instructors qualifications, would have been at the base passing on the benefit of his knowledge to the large citizen's army that was building throughout 1915-16. As a PT and Musketry instructor with a record of good conduct he would have been highly valuable to those responsible for delivering training. He would have enjoyed such a position of responsibility I imagine and also have been held in high regard by trainees, providing he was a considerate instructor. Instructors at the base schools wore yellow arm bands and were known as 'Canaries' as a result. Many (but not all) were seen as bullies according to contemporary and anecdotal records.

It is interesting that you say he temporarily lost his sight, as this was often an effect of being exposed to a gas attack. My supposition would be that he was perhaps gassed between March and August 1918 when the massive German offensive pushed our lines back almost to where they were in 1914. Many 'Base schools of instruction were affected by the helter skelter retreat that our forces underwent and he might well have been caught up in this and gassed.

It is a pity about Louisa Ellen, but perhaps you can pursue her through Anglo/Indian records rather than British ones. Have you tried these links:

http://www.genealogy.../country/india/

http://genealogy.abo...india/India.htm

http://www.indian-cemeteries.org/

http://www.ltn.net/T...ture/Genealogy/

http://lists.rootswe...RITISH-RAJ.html

[Gill33]

His second service number with the Oxf & Bucks would confirm his re-enlistment with them in my view. The natural role of a returned reservist, or a time-expired man returning to the Colours, who has valuable instructors qualifications, would have been at the base passing on the benefit of his knowledge to the large citizen's army that was building throughout 1915-16. As a PT and Musketry instructor with a record of good conduct he would have been highly valuable to those responsible for delivering training. He would have enjoyed such a position of responsibility I imagine and also have been held in high regard by trainees, providing he was a considerate instructor. Instructors at the base schools wore yellow arm bands and were known as 'Canaries' as a result. Many (but not all) were seen as bullies according to contemporary and anecdotal records.

It is interesting that you say he temporarily lost his sight, as this was often an effect of being exposed to a gas attack. My supposition would be that he was perhaps gassed between March and August 1918 when the massive German offensive pushed our lines back almost to where they were in 1914. Many 'Base schools of instruction were affected by the helter skelter retreat that our forces underwent and he might well have been caught up in this and gassed.

It is a pity about Louisa Ellen, but perhaps you can pursue her through Anglo/Indian records rather than British ones. Have you tried these links:

http://www.genealogy.../country/india/

http://genealogy.abo...india/India.htm

http://www.indian-cemeteries.org/

http://www.ltn.net/T...ture/Genealogy/

http://lists.rootswe...RITISH-RAJ.html

[Gill33]

Many thanks Frogsmile for the extra information and the links to the Anglo/Indian records. I shall enjoy following them all up and will report back if I find anything!

Gill

[FROGSMILE]

Many thanks Frogsmile for the extra information and the links to the Anglo/Indian records. I shall enjoy following them all up and will report back if I find anything!

Gill

Good luck Gill, please let us know how you get on.