Uniform identification?

[Gill33]

Dear all,

Any identification of my Great Grandfather's uniform from these two photographs would be most helpful. Henry Edward Watson was born in London in 1874. I was told that he was in the Durham Light Infantry but the only army records that I can find on him are of the birth of his children (Wilfred in 1905 born Oxford listed 43rd Regiment, Rosina born 1906 born Chaubattia, 43rd Regiment and John born 1909, Wellington, India - no Regiment listed).

Many thanks

[Michelle Young]

Assuming your Gt Grandfather is the splendid looking man standing centre in the 2nd photo he is in the Machine Cun Corps, with the rank of Sgt. The pre war photo looks to have a bugle on the shoulder and which fits in wwith a Light Infantry regiment.

Michelle

[Muerrisch]

LHS ill. A lcpl with minimum 5 years service in the India Pattern unlined frock. Marksman.

[Stebie9173]

The 43rd of Foot was one of the predecessor battalions (pre-1881) of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire light Infantry (the 43rd was actually the Monmouthshire Light Infantry). The 43rd became the 1st Battalion of the O&BLI

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

Although from an acute angle, the cap badge on his field service cap does look more like that of the DLI than the Oxf&Bucks. It seems as if he might have transferred from a light infantry regiment into the MGC. It's puzzling that he is wearing a medal with 2 bars in the earlier photo, but does not appear to have the ribbon up on his tunic when in the MGC, although the ribbon is dark hued and it might just be obscured.

You might find the following MGC links of interest:

http://www.machinegu...%2001.04.08.pdf

http://www.machine-g...intro_page.html

http://www.machineguncorps.co.uk/

[FROGSMILE]

43rd&52nd (Oxf&Bucks)

[Stebie9173]

I think the ribbon is there but very dark. It may also be the India GSM 1895 for the Tirah Campaign in which the 2nd O&BLI fought.

If so there is an Private E Watson, No. 4235 entitled to the medal and two clasps (Tirah 1897-98 and Punjab Fronitier 1897-98) in the WO/100 records.

DLI records show a H Watson, 1st DLI, No. 7382, entitled to the QSA with 4 clasps (Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal & South Africa 1902), and not entitled to the KSA.

Steve.

[Piorun]

Ribbon's there. Antony

[FROGSMILE]

Ribbon's there. Antony

Yes, I think I can see it now (just about) at the bottom of his rifle patch.

[Gill33]

Many thanks that is very helpful in deed and I shall follow up the links. I think that he started out as a PTI. The army births and baptism records definitely quote the 43rd regiment for the birth recordings of his first two children (1st and 3rd of which are pictured in the second photograph). The original army birth records must be kept somewhere and I would have thought would mention the mother and father's name. I was told that he may have returned from India with his 3 children just before the start of the Great War but I have no idea what he did after that. He may well have transferred at some point I guess.

Gill

[FROGSMILE]

Many thanks that is very helpful in deed and I shall follow up the links. I think that he started out as a PTI. The army births and baptism records definitely quote the 43rd regiment for the birth recordings of his first two children (1st and 3rd of which are pictured in the second photograph). The original army birth records must be kept somewhere and I would have thought would mention the mother and father's name. I was told that he may have returned from India with his 3 children just before the start of the Great War but I have no idea what he did after that. He may well have transferred at some point I guess.

Gill

As Stebie said the term '43rd' was used by the 1st Battalion of the Oxf & Bucks Light Infantry as it was very proud of its pre 1881 lineage as the 43rd of Foot. It was one of the elite units of the Napoleonic period and very famous for its exploits in the Light Division there. Similarly the 2nd Battalion was known by its number as the 52nd.

[Staffsyeoman]

I would contend that he is, in fact, a Staff Sergeant Instructor in Musketry in the MGC shot, as I see a Crown above gilding metal crossed rifles over three stripes.

And if you go to this excellent resource, here he is on the roll for the Indian General Service Medal

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/india_1895_rolls/oxfordshire_light_infantry_3.htm

It has him as E (not H.E.) however

[FROGSMILE]

I would contend that he is, in fact, a Staff Sergeant Instructor in Musketry in the MGC shot, as I see a Crown above gilding metal crossed rifles over three stripes.

And if you go to this excellent resource, here he is on the roll for the Indian General Service Medal

http://www.northeast..._infantry_3.htm

It has him as E (not H.E.) however

Yes, well spotted. Apparently it was quite common for men to use their middle name instead of first, especially if the first was the same as their father (or so I was told by a genealogist). The photo looks to have been taken at the end of the war given what looks like a 14 or 15 star (?) on one of the other sitters and the apparent age of the SSgt. As the MGC was disbanded in 1922, I wonder if he transferred yet again, or simply retired.

[Muerrisch]

I would contend that he is, in fact, a Staff Sergeant Instructor in Musketry in the MGC shot, as I see a Crown above gilding metal crossed rifles over three stripes.

And if you go to this excellent resource, here he is on the roll for the Indian General Service Medal

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/india_1895_rolls/oxfordshire_light_infantry_3.htm

It has him as E (not H.E.) however

In the infantry the appointment was Colour Sergeant Instructor Musketry ["staff" was a collective noun for senior appointments but infantry did not have "staff" sergeants. Alone of the army, the full sergeants and above of infantry were privileged to wear the scarlet sash. I expect you knew this anyway, but .........]

[FROGSMILE]

In the infantry the appointment was Colour Sergeant Instructor Musketry ["staff" was a collective noun for senior appointments but infantry did not have "staff" sergeants. Alone of the army, the full sergeants and above of infantry were privileged to wear the scarlet sash. I expect you knew this anyway, but .........]

I have often wondered what a crown over 3 stripes would have been titled in the Cavalry part of the MGC. I know that as well as the bulk of the MGC, the school of musketry became aligned with the infantry, but I do not know at what date that decision was taken, although it did affect dress and I imagine it was well before WW1.

Until the 1920s scarlet and crimson sashes were not worn with SD (although curiously they were with KD!). I think the change was made to try and dress up the drab serge given that full dress was no longer issued.

[Gill33]

Okay many thanks! Well his father's name was William Henry and by the time of his youngest son's marriage in 1932 he was working in London as a Fireman so he may have retired from the Army in 1922. He lived until 1955 (aged 81) in the East End of London. From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfordshire_and_Buckinghamshire_Light_Infantry#Operations_across_the_Empire_.281881.E2.80.931914.29 I assumed that he was in the 1st Battalion as the 2nd returned the the UK in 1903. He was married in London in 1904 and his first child was born in Oxford in 1905 but the birth of his second child in 1906 was in India, the third my Grandfather was also born in India in 1909. I guess he could have been in the 2nd Battalion returned to the UK in 1903, married, transferred to the 1st and returned to India in 1906 before returning to the UK at the start of WW1.

Gill

[Staffsyeoman]

OK, if he is in the MGC (Infantry) as opposed to Cavalry or Motors, and on balance he probably is - Colour Sgt Instructor.

I am equally intrigued by the soldier seated front left.

Queen's (or a battalion of the London) Regiment; seems to be a bandsman and wearing a battalion

flash (a black/dark coloured diamond?). The ribbon seems to have a dark line which would rule out a Star , unless it's a negative flaw. None seem to have overseas service stripes.

[FROGSMILE]

I guess he could have been in the 2nd Battalion returned to the UK in 1903, married, transferred to the 1st and returned to India in 1906 before returning to the UK at the start of WW1.

Gill

That is quite feasible Gill as many men who enjoyed service in India would transfer battalions to go back. They had to balance greater risk from disease and active service with an often much better lifestyle where even soldiers (and certainly NCOs) could afford servants. Those NCOs with families could provide servants to help their wives too and I imagine that would have been appealing to some.

[FROGSMILE]

OK, if he is in the MGC (Infantry) as opposed to Cavalry or Motors, and on balance he probably is - Colour Sgt Instructor.

I am equally intrigued by the soldier seated front left.

Queen's (or a battalion of the London) Regiment; seems to be a bandsman and wearing a battalion

flash (a black/dark coloured diamond?). The ribbon seems to have a dark line which would rule out a Star , unless it's a negative flaw. None seem to have overseas service stripes.

Yes, I see the shape is a bandsman's badge now that you mention it and it does seem odd that there are no overseas stripes. You make a good point about the ribbon too, but I cannot imagine what other ribbon would appear so pale in the photo.

[Gill33]

The soldier seated on the front left is his eldest son Wilf born Oxford 1905, on the right his other son born Wellington in 1909. I assume that this is a family photo perhaps set up for Henry's retirement from the army. I do not think that either sons did active service abroad. The man on the right John Watson I understood started work as a messenger/telegram person for the Post Office.

[FROGSMILE]

The soldier seated on the front left is his eldest son Wilf born Oxford 1905, on the right his other son born Wellington in 1909. I assume that this is a family photo perhaps set up for Henry's retirement from the army. I do not think that either sons did active service abroad. The man on the right John Watson I understood started work as a messenger/telegram person for the Post Office.

Both of the sitting men seem older than one would expect for lads born in 1905 and 1909 and yet given the disbandment of the MGC in 1922, your supposition that it might be a retirement photo seems likely. All in all it's very puzzling.

[Gill33]

I agree it is all very puzzling and yes I think that you are right - they must be older than 17 and 13! Anyway thanks for the help - I have some leads to follow up on now!

[Gill33]

You were quite right! I managed to view the army record for Edward Watson and it was him! He joined the Ox and Bucks 1st Battalion in 1892 aged 18 then switched to the 2nd for a 9 year stint in India. On returning to the UK he switched back to the 1st with which he remained with mostly in India and Burma until he resigned in order to return home in 1911. He left with a very good reference for his artillery skills and his gymnastics instruction skills.

He must have joined the MGC at some point after 1911 or even at the start of WW1.

Gill

[Muerrisch]

The Machine Gun Corps was authorized in October 1915 with infantry, cavalry, motor and in early 1916 a heavy branch. Prior to that, MGs were kept at unit level, after that, the MG men were transferred into MGC, and the guns replaced by the Lewis [infantry] and Hotchkiss [cavalry]. So you have a gap to fill.

[FROGSMILE]

You were quite right! I managed to view the army record for Edward Watson and it was him! He joined the Ox and Bucks 1st Battalion in 1892 aged 18 then switched to the 2nd for a 9 year stint in India. On returning to the UK he switched back to the 1st with which he remained with mostly in India and Burma until he resigned in order to return home in 1911. He left with a very good reference for his artillery skills and his gymnastics instruction skills.

He must have joined the MGC at some point after 1911 or even at the start of WW1.

Gill

He might well have re-enlisted with the MGC around the time that they were forming Gill. If you can find his MGC service number (from his medal index card - MIC) it ought to be possible to trace his enlistment date.

This is another link you might find interesting: http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/

I also think this lapel badge is particularly nicely done for a modern badge: http://www.militaryh...el_badge_BADGE4

Original lapel or sweetheart brooches for the MGC can be very expensive.

This (enclosed) is almost certainly the kind of badge he is wearing in the hat in his hand in the first photo, as it is smaller than the full sized Oxf & Bucks cap badge, that I posted above.