Muerrisch Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Just a Farrier Sergeant I think..... This is a great reference site... Farrier Sergeant 1917-1921 here: http://www.lawranceordnance.com/information/uniforms_and_equipment/badges_and_insignia/rank_aif_1917.php Wider site here: http://www.lawranceordnance.com/information/uniforms_and_equipment/badges_and_insignia/index.php Rgds Tim D If these sites indeed depict AIF badges there were some strange differences from British .... for example ALL 4 bar chevrons were to be point upwards. There is also no provision for Colour Sergeant .... I could go on ...... Nice try, however. By the way, I can not be sure that I can see the RA gun on the photo [over the horseshoe] so perhaps he is a lance-sergeant RA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 There is provision for Colour Sergeant...but is was discontinued by 1917 (peculiar to infantry regiments apparently). Have a look at the 1914-1915 page. The pages are drawn straight from the Australian Regulations apparently (I would assume they were largely the same as British). If he has got it wrong perhaps you should e-mail the author and set him straight? Thats OK...I am sure...the gun is definitely there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 He is mounted as you can tell by his puttees if mounted the tapes on his puttees were tied above his ankles. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinypink Posted 10 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Kevin I have looked at the records for that Will Joyce you mentioned you were right not mine he was Roman Catholic, looked at the medal index there was another William Henry Joyce but mine did not have a middle name saying that his brother gave himself one. No records for that William Joyce. Do you think this is a gun above the horseshoe Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 There is provision for Colour Sergeant...but is was discontinued by 1917 (peculiar to infantry regiments apparently). Have a look at the 1914-1915 page. The pages are drawn straight from the Australian Regulations apparently (I would assume they were largely the same as British). If he has got it wrong perhaps you should e-mail the author and set him straight? Thats OK...I am sure...the gun is definitely there.... As Grumpy says the site's information on rank is riddled with errors, although entirely understandable ones. The main problem area is with Quarter Master Sergeants (QMS) and the term 'Staff Sergeants'. The first existed at different levels depending on arm of service, e.g. in 1914 the infantry only had QMS at unit (battalion) level, whereas almost all other arms (e.g. Cavalry, RA, RE, ASC and AOC) also had QMS at sub-unit (battery/company/squadron/troop) level, and the latter was a generic term to cover Sergeants in 'Staff' (i.e. battalion, brigade (the RA equivalent), and regimental, as well as formation level) appointments. At that time Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa, all followed the same regulation for ranks and appointments with minimal differences and certainly none on the scale shown in the site. Efforts were made to tidy up the anomalies between the various arms in 1915 and 1918, and these were largely settled by the close of the 1920s with few further changes until WW2 and the advent (as an expedient) of warrants officers in 3 instead of 2 classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/uploads/monthly_12_2010/post-7621-002093000%201292264311.jpg If you follow this post, Squirrel says he was a Farrier Staff Sergeant RA. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Kevin I have looked at the records for that Will Joyce you mentioned you were right not mine he was Roman Catholic, looked at the medal index there was another William Henry Joyce but mine did not have a middle name saying that his brother gave himself one. No records for that William Joyce. Do you think this is a gun above the horseshoe Angela I think it is indeed a gun Angela as a crown would also have reguired a gun for a RA SNCO, which would have made the badge even further up the arm from top to bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinypink Posted 10 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Thank you for that I thought it maybe a gun was a bit blured is that the crown on his other sleeve also he looks as if has more than one badge on his hat. Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Hi, Angela. Without punctuation, I'm not sure of the meaning of your post but there's only one badge on his cap. Royal Artillery. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Quote, " looked at the medal index there was another William Henry Joyce but mine did not have a middle name saying that his brother gave himself one." Do you have his birth certificate? As he is wearing what looks like 4 years overseas chevrons then he must have a MIC somewhere. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Thank you for that I thought it maybe a gun was a bit blured is that the crown on his other sleeve also he looks as if has more than one badge on his hat. Angela Hi Angela, no that would not be a crown on his other sleeve but another gun. Guns were worn in pairs by RA SNCOS above their badge of rank. The badge on his hat is one piece and comprises a gun (of 9 pounder type from the Napoleonic wars and adopted as a badge around 1832), which surmounts a scroll inscribed QUO FAS ET GLORIA DU **** (which means 'whither right and glory leads'). At the top is another scroll inscribed UBIQUE ('everywhere'), which was awarded to both the RA and RE by William IV in 1822 to reflect that both Corps will, and do always, appear wherever the British Army is in action. I have posted a picture of the cap badge and also the gun badge that appears above the badge of rank. and arm badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 Here also is another RA soldier in similar dress for you to compare Angela. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 March , 2011 Share Posted 10 March , 2011 http://1914-1918.inv...01292264311.jpg If you follow this post, Squirrel says he was a Farrier Staff Sergeant RA. Antony He would have to have a crown above his stripes to be a staff sergeant and we have already established that he does not appear to have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 There is provision for Colour Sergeant...but is was discontinued by 1917 (peculiar to infantry regiments apparently). Have a look at the 1914-1915 page. The pages are drawn straight from the Australian Regulations apparently (I would assume they were largely the same as British). If he has got it wrong perhaps you should e-mail the author and set him straight? Thats OK...I am sure...the gun is definitely there.... If I chased after every author who did not get the facts right I would do little else. As it is, I confine my efforts these days to three excellent Fora .... this pre-eminent one, the British Badge Forum, and the Victorian Wars Forum. I can only repeat that if the Australian Regs. had 4 bar chevrons point down, they were wildly out of line with British, and if they did not, then we have a howler of first magnitude ...... since 1881! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Time for a book or a website GRUMPY! Maybe something comprehensive added to The Long Long Trail? If you fall off the perch...what then happens? It has been qualified on the site with this: 'The following images are based upon Military Order 516 of 1917 and the Orders for Dress and Clothing 1918. As with previous articles concerning badges of rank and appointment the table of rank and appointments and the order of precedence within Military Order 516 were found to be incomplete. The nominal roll of the AIF was therefore, consulted to complete the images below. This system is however, far from perfect and undoubtedly appointments for which distinguishing badges existed are missing from those below. The following being concerned with the badges of rank and appointment is not a complete list of the appointments then in use. Those appointments for which no distinguishing badges existed are not shown'. Some of the Australian Regs probably were howlers if this day and age is anything to go by.... Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 He would have to have a crown above his stripes to be a staff sergeant and we have already established that he does not appear to have one. Point taken. Thank you. Apologies for muddying the waters. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Time for a book or a website GRUMPY! Maybe something comprehensive added to The Long Long Trail? If you fall off the perch...what then happens? It has been qualified on the site with this: 'The following images are based upon Military Order 516 of 1917 and the Orders for Dress and Clothing 1918. As with previous articles concerning badges of rank and appointment the table of rank and appointments and the order of precedence within Military Order 516 were found to be incomplete. The nominal roll of the AIF was therefore, consulted to complete the images below. This system is however, far from perfect and undoubtedly appointments for which distinguishing badges existed are missing from those below. The following being concerned with the badges of rank and appointment is not a complete list of the appointments then in use. Those appointments for which no distinguishing badges existed are not shown'. Some of the Australian Regs probably were howlers if this day and age is anything to go by.... Rgds Tim D you could always read this: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=144191&st=0&p=1381076&fromsearch=1entry1381076 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinypink Posted 12 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Kevin I am not use to the abbreviations of the Army what is MIC and also as he had 4 years of oversea chevrons does this mean he had been in the Army quite some time. Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 MIC = Medal Index Card. You can reserach them at Ancesty. Yes, he had been in the Army for some time. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinypink Posted 14 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2012 I agree to abide by the rules of The Great War Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 February , 2012 Share Posted 14 February , 2012 There is ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT THIS IS 1918 OR LATER UNLESS A TARDIS WAS AVAILABLE. The overseas chevrons were not issued until early 1918 ...... not even invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 February , 2012 Share Posted 14 February , 2012 There is provision for Colour Sergeant...but is was discontinued by 1917 (peculiar to infantry regiments apparently). Have a look at the 1914-1915 page. The pages are drawn straight from the Australian Regulations apparently (I would assume they were largely the same as British). If he has got it wrong perhaps you should e-mail the author and set him straight? Thats OK...I am sure...the gun is definitely there.... I could spend a substantial part of every day trying to help people get the facts right, but I never try with two sorts of people for one sort of reason. Yorkshiremen ["you can always tell a Yorkshireman but you can't tell him anything"] and Australians. I just keep within the bounds of 3 Fora that I belong to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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