shippingsteel Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 It is one of the later manufactured versions, Chris. I believe it is referred to as the Mle1924, but this example is the 'shortened' pattern (in 15.5mm MRD) which I understand was made for the M1935 & M1936 Mausers. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koen Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 It is one of the later manufactured versions, Chris. I believe it is referred to as the Mle1924, but this example is the 'shortened' pattern (in 15.5mm MRD) which I understand was made for the M1935 & M1936 Mausers. Cheers, S>S That's correct, except for the name. As it wasn't an official modification, there is no official name. The Mle1924 was a completely different type http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/very-nice-belgium-bayonet-m24-long-export The length of the shortened bayo is approx 13.6 inches (the blade), normal length is 17.6 inches. Regards, Koen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 dman is this what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 Try here: http://www.abl1914.be/Cavkarab1889a/Cavkarab1889a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 That's correct, except for the name. As it wasn't an official modification, there is no official name. The Mle1924 was a completely different type http://www.worthpoin...m24-long-export Regards, Koen Thank you Koen, as I mentioned there is much confusion regarding these bayonets, especially with the export types of the between-wars period. I think there may have been 2 varieties of Mle1924 (just to make things interesting.!) One of sword type as you have shown, and one of epee type as I described. From Kiesling the official designation used is Epee-baionette Mle1924, and he states that FN described them as 'Baionette Speciale Belge et coloniale 1924'.? Obviously some of these types may never have been official Belgian army issue, with many being made up by FN to accompany their 'export' Mauser rifles. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 March , 2011 Share Posted 1 March , 2011 Try here: http://www.abl1914.b...vkarab1889a.htm Very useful site, thanks for providing the link, but THIS carbine is the more appropriate match. I had a laugh when I saw the clear pic of the sling attachment slot - who is right and who is wrong .... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 1 March , 2011 Share Posted 1 March , 2011 According to the picture would it mean that they carried their weapon upside down Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 March , 2011 Share Posted 2 March , 2011 According to the picture would it mean that they carried their weapon upside down They could very well have been, Pat. And especially by the mounted troops. I understand that the slot for the sling attachment was added to allow for usage by mounted riders - not as much by proper cavalry but by despatch riders and the like. I am not certain how they were carried in this fashion by riders, but if anyone had a photo of the actual sling fitting that they used I'm sure it would help us to understand how it all worked. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 March , 2013 Share Posted 29 March , 2013 OK, oh learned ones, this ignoramus of a country bumpkin needs some clarification. What exactly do you all mean by a 'Model 1916' bayonet? Is this just a term for a bayonet that was developed and introduced in 1916, I assume in Liege, the UK or US, the T-backed one for the Guarde Civile, the other with a quatrefoil section for the army; or were these bayonets associated with a change to the specifications of the Mauser 1889 which now became a Mauser 1889/1916? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 30 March , 2013 Share Posted 30 March , 2013 The Modele 1916 Belgian Mauser was a wartime variation of the 'M1889 Carbine with Yataghan' - essentially a more economical 'short rifle' version for the trenches. There were 2 different types of Modele 1916 bayonet that were made for it, with the T backed Gras type blade, or the double-edged blade with central rib both sides. Both of these have 17.5mm MRD. The T back was provided to the Gendarmarie while the other style was given to regular Army troops. These are shown in post #23. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 March , 2013 Share Posted 30 March , 2013 Thanks! I had seen so many references to this Belgian Model 1916 bayonet and its two versions, but narry a whisper afore about a modified (shortened) Mauser 1899/1916... So the latter is just a shorter version of the Mauser 1899 - but shortened from the rifle or the carbine version? And was this shorter version Liege made or also UK and USA? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 30 March , 2013 Share Posted 30 March , 2013 When the Germans invaded Belgium their major production facility at Liege was overrun which caused complications - their arms production had to be relocated. I believe temporary workshops and depots were setup in the Channel ports (even those in France) and a special facility was also established in Birmingham UK. So the Modele 1916 carbine would have been made new from scratch, modified from existing M1889 carbines, and rebuilt from weapons salvaged from the field. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 March , 2013 Share Posted 30 March , 2013 I thought Liege was probably behind 'enemy lines' but a source I was looking at reported that Belgian 'M1916 bayonets were produced from 1916–1924 at Manufacture D'Armes de le Etat (Arms Manufacturer of the State) in Liege'. I guess the author, a respected bayonet collector and dealer (who will be nameless), made a boo-boo there... Presumably he means the post-war version... Incidentally, the IWM examples of the M.1916 bayonet have a 'B' stamped on them and as M.1899/1916's were made at Birmingham (and marked as such), then that 'B' could well mean 'Birmingham'. Any idea if the M.1899/1916 bayonet was made by Hopkins & Allen? I'm certain I have seen a M.1899 made by them but all of their bayonets that I know of are of their lengthened M.1899 'sword'-type. And finally, what are your and others' thoughts on how to describe the blade of these Belgian M.1889/1916 bayonets? Some French and English texts talk of a 'quadrilateral' blade, but I have also seen it described as 'double-edged with broad flat medial rib, tapering to double-edged tip' (!). Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 March , 2013 Share Posted 31 March , 2013 To my knowledge Hopkins & Allen in the USA only made the long M1889 sword bayonet version which accompanied their wartime manufactured M1889 long rifles. I would describe the standard Mle 1916 Infantry bayonet as being "a double-edged sword bayonet in the traditional epee style". Unusual I know but that's what it is.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 31 March , 2013 Share Posted 31 March , 2013 After the fall of Liege the Belgian government contracted with W.W. Greener to produce rifles and bayonets at his Bagot Street, Birmingham factory using both British and Belgian craftsmen. Rifle produced there were stamped in two lines on the receiver "W.W.GREENER BIRMINGHAM" and are extremely hard to find today. In 1916 the Belgian government purchased the factory and continued production, the rifles now being marked "ETAT BELGE BIRMINGHAM". Attached picture shows an example I photographed at the NFC Leeds. I have only seen long rifleas and bayonets so marked but they may have made carbines as well. If the Greener rifles were inspected by British inspectors on behalf of the Belgians then they would be stamped with a crown over a number over "B". Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 March , 2013 Share Posted 31 March , 2013 In 1916 the Belgian government purchased the factory and continued production, the rifles now being marked "ETAT BELGE BIRMINGHAM". I have only seen long rifleas and bayonets so marked but they may have made carbines as well. You only need to look back at the OP to see an example of the carbine that was made in Birmingham. I believe we have established this carbine to be the Mle 1916. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 31 March , 2013 Share Posted 31 March , 2013 Oops, that's what happens when you start halfway through a thread! Sorry. TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 March , 2013 Share Posted 31 March , 2013 ...Oops, that's what happens when you start halfway through a thread!... Dinna fash ye'self, 'appens oft enough! And of course its the bayonet I'm interested in, so I'll start a new thread... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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