4thGordons Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 I have been looking for a Belgian Mauser of WWI vintage for ages. I finally found an example I could afford. It is not a perfect example (mismatched bolt serial number, missing cleaning rod and what looks to be a refinished stock) however it appears to be a reasonable representative example. In addition, it has the added attraction for me of being one of the few rifles produced in Britain for the Belgian government during the war. Totally unmodified Belgain Mausers seem to be really quite uncommon so I am happy with this one To be honest I am not entirely sure which model it is although I think it is the cavalry carbine known as the "7.65mm Carabine de Cavallerie Modele 1889" although I am still investigating. 2 of my sources suggest the M1889 cav. carb was sighted to 1900m and this one appears to be sighted to 1800. It does however have the slotted plate in the butt for a cavalry carry-strap. The bayonet mount is also missing - appearing to have been professionally machined off - but I have not found a reference to this so I am not sure what to make of it. It is a very plain rifle as far as markings go, the name on the receiver ring, an asterisk on the right of the receiver and a small acceptance mark (?) on the left. Other than this (and serials on the barrel,receiver, buttplate (all match) and bolt and magazine floorplate (do not match) the weapon is quite bare. There are a couple of small dents in the barrel sleeve but nothing too bad at all. I would appreciate any information/insights from Belgian pals or anyone else! Especially about the possibility of finding a cleaning rod and/or bayonet band if this modification is deemed to be unofficial. Actually any information would be great! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Hello Chris , I found this I hope its useful http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Eq2Dnj4sDZIC&pg=PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=belgian+mauser+rifle+M+1889+made+in+birmingham&source=bl&ots=savDmfKHwI&sig=i4PWUUdlhIHJ2zsXSdd57jSxIR0&hl=en&ei=mW1lTZWoE4SYhQfborjbBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=belgian%20mauser%20rifle%20M%201889%20made%20in%20birmingham&f=false regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Looks nice Chris; you must have enough rifles to equip at least platoon by now. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Hey Chris, not claiming any particular expertise on this, but had a quick flick through my Mauser reference books if it helps. From its profile it appears to be the M1889 Carbine in standard format, without having had any of the cavalry or gendarmarie conversions applied. It obviously should still have the bayonet lug in place on the front band to allow the bayonet to be attached in the normal manner under the barrel. The small oval shaped cartouche you have pictured contains the letters EGB and is the Belgian government proof/acceptance mark. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Hey Chris, not claiming any particular expertise on this, but had a quick flick through my Mauser reference books if it helps. From its profile it appears to be the M1889 Carbine in standard format, without having had any of the cavalry or gendarmarie conversions applied. It obviously should still have the bayonet lug in place on the front band to allow the bayonet to be attached in the normal manner under the barrel. The small oval shaped cartouche you have pictured contains the letters EGB and is the Belgian government proof/acceptance mark. Cheers, S>S Thanks everyone. I have not yet been through all my references however I do have several versions of John Walters' information (linked above - he seems to bave published essantially the same thing in at least 3 books - nice work if you can get it!) The reason I believe it is the cavalry carbine is the slotted attachment in the side of the butt. All the other versions appear to use conventional sling swivels or sling bars on the side of the stock and only the cavalry carbine used this slot/stud attachment. I will keep digging. Of course there may be variations in the production from the UK, for which I will need TonyE's expertise. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 The reason I believe it is the cavalry carbine is the slotted attachment in the side of the butt. All the other versions appear to use conventional sling swivels or sling bars on the side of the stock and only the cavalry carbine used this slot/stud attachment. I will keep digging. Of course there may be variations in the production from the UK, for which I will need TonyE's expertise. Chris The photos I have seen of the standard cavalry conversions show a different sling slot to yours. The slots are longer and situated closer to the pistol grip. Also the cavalry versions seem to have lightened forends and the front band is arranged differently to yours. But there may be variations as you say. EDIT. I think THIS is similar to yours. They are known simply as Belgian M1889 Carbine with Bayonet. Enlarged photos HERE. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2011 (edited) Thanks S>S I've looked at dozens of pics this evening and am still none the wiser as regards identifying a definitive type. The picture of the carbine you linked differs in two respects - the slot in the butt-stock (mine has the one shown does not) and mine has no spring clip holding the barrel band in place and the one pictured does. You are however correct that some of the pictures of the cavalry carbine show a shorter fore-end. Several websites refer to the "M1889/16" or "M1916" carbine as being the type produced in the UK but that does not seem to be referenced in the books I have been through thus far. The description I have read sounds close but references a sling bar on the butt. It is entirely possible I have a mongrel here too I suppose....I should stick to Enfields! I am also having fits trying to ID Carano carbines types too! Chris OK so this is looking a lot more like mine to me described as Model 1916 Edit #2 further reading suggests the sling insert/clip thing was further forward on earlier models but this was on the narrower part of the stock and weakened it significantly so it was moved rearwards. THIS THREAD seems to show carbines akin to mine identified as M1916 Carbines Edited 24 February , 2011 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Fully agreed, the M1916 variation it is. That SA museum link had the rifle subtitled with the M1916 reference which got me thinking. After some more reading I'd virtually reached the same conclusion, that it must be the M1916 version - just hadn't gotten around to see any photos to confirm. I had been a little suspicious that yours may have been restocked at some point, but no it looks similar to the others you linked so all looks good. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 A nice addition to your collection,mine is made by Manufacture D'Armes de L'Etat. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I had a closer look on your pictures and the slottplate must be mounted the other way Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 25 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I had a closer look on your pictures and the slottplate must be mounted the other way Pat Hi Pat Thanks - I wondered about that - but in the linked pictures (above) one has it one way - one the other! The opposite way around would make most logical sense (so the weight of the weapon pulls towards the narrow end when slung) so I will apply my screwdriver this weekend! I assume it was switched when the stock was refinished (which is unfortunate but beggars can't be choosers and this is the first one I have seen in a good few years) - what are the chances of finding a cleaning rod and unmodified bayonet band? better in Belgium? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 Chris I will have a look around but it will take time, even for us Belgians it is hard too find certain things. Pat ps what do you think about the pictures i send you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 25 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2011 Pat - pictures were very impressive - thanks for sending them. I am sorry I thought I replied to you directly. I will by email later. I was looknig at other more common versions of this general type (EG the Argentinian Mausers) and the barrel band and cleaning rods look to be almost identical so I might see if I can find one of those (much more common in the US) as a stop-gap. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koen Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 Hi Pat Thanks - I wondered about that - but in the linked pictures (above) one has it one way - one the other! The opposite way around would make most logical sense (so the weight of the weapon pulls towards the narrow end when slung) so I will apply my screwdriver this weekend! I assume it was switched when the stock was refinished (which is unfortunate but beggars can't be choosers and this is the first one I have seen in a good few years) - what are the chances of finding a cleaning rod and unmodified bayonet band? better in Belgium? Chris Hello Chris, (and Pat) To my opinion the slott plate is mounted correctly; 90% of the carbines I've seen have it this way. As to the bayonet band : on a correct Mle1889/16 carbine there should be both a stacking swivel and a bayonet lug. This will be very hard to find, I'm afraid. A cleaning rod will be even harder, not to say impossible. The correct Mle 1916 bayonet (17,5 mm diameter) on the other hand should be easier to find. The Mle 35/36 type looks equal, but has a 15,5 mm diameter. The Birmingham carbines are (together with the H&A rifles) the most common types Belgian mausers to find, but little is known about production history. Regards, Koen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I am about to start researching the Birmingham production of Belgian Mausers on behalf of a US author who is writing a book on them. The Birmingham Museum has some nice photographs of the factory and I have a couple of other sources I need to progress. Regards tonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koen Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I am about to start researching the Birmingham production of Belgian Mausers on behalf of a US author who is writing a book on them. The Birmingham Museum has some nice photographs of the factory and I have a couple of other sources I need to progress. Regards tonyE Hello tonyE, This is great news, and it would truly fill a gap ! Is it possible to tell us the name of this author ? The one I have in mind surely is an expert on this subject. Regards, Koen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Pat - pictures were very impressive - thanks for sending them. I am sorry I thought I replied to you directly. I will by email later. I was looknig at other more common versions of this general type (EG the Argentinian Mausers) and the barrel band and cleaning rods look to be almost identical so I might see if I can find one of those (much more common in the US) as a stop-gap. Chris I have a 1891 Argentine Mauser made by DWM Berlin An even rarer type would be the Belgian Mauser made by American gun makers of Hopkins & Allen in 1916 to requip Belgian army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Could one of the locals perhaps expand on the 'correct' usage of the Belgian bayonets with these M1889 Mauser rifles and carbines.? There is a great deal of uncertainty amongst collectors surrounding these bayonets, and which versions were actually used with which rifles and by whom. I will list below the variations that I am aware of, and if anyone could please comment on its accuracy that would be most appreciated. Mle 1889 short (250mm blade) Standard infantry bayonet for the M1889 rifle Mle 1889 medium (300mm blade) 'Garde Civique' pattern for the M1889 rifle Mle 1889 long (400mm blade) 'Hopkins & Allen' version made in the US Mle 1889 very long (550mm blade) Sabre blade issued with carbines to Fortress and Gendarmerie units.? Mle 1916 epee (450mm blade) T section blade issued with carbines.? All of the above bayonets featured the 17.5mm MRD for attachment to the M1889 series of rifles and carbines. Am I correct in believing that the T section bladed Mle1916 would be the most appropriate for Chris' carbine.? Did the UK made rifles have a special version.? Is it also true that the shortened & double edged blades with the 15mm MRD only came in with the M1924 and M1930 series of Mausers.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Shippingsteel Problem is that you hardly find anything about the Belgian Army, from the pictures I have seen it was all a mixture Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Koen If you think about the slotplate I think you are wrong because if you would attach a belt and then put it around your shoulder it would come loose Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koen Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hello shippingsteel, You are correct about the Mle 1889 bayonets (there is also the bayonet for the Cyclists of Garde Civique, with a 15,5 mm MRD -250mm blade-). As for the Mle16 : the Tbladed one was issued to the gendarmery, other troups had the double edged blades. There are two types of the Mle 16 bayonet (17,5 mm). I’m not familiar with the English terms, so photos may help to show the difference : The 1916 type : Uploaded with ImageShack.us And the later model (believed to be in production from 1920 on) Uploaded with ImageShack.us The first type is the correct one for Chris’ carbine. The shortened bayonets are a bit of a mystery to me. This post-war modification was not on an official base, and they may have been used on the Mle 1889, Mle1935 and mle 1889/36 rifles (and carbines). The M1924 rifle was meant for export and has not been used by the Belgian army. Regards, Koen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koen Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Koen If you think about the slotplate I think you are wrong because if you would attach a belt and then put it around your shoulder it would come loose Pat That sounds logical, indeed Pat. But this slott plate is still a mystery : I know of no documents, manuals nor photographs showing the use of it. I can only speak for myself, but most carbines I have seen have it the other way. The few good books on these rifles also show these types of carbines with the slot plate like Chris’ carbine. I hope that the author will help us out, in his book about Birmingham. Untill then… Regards, Koen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 As for the Mle16 : the Tbladed one was issued to the gendarmery, other troups had the double edged blades. There are two types of the Mle 16 bayonet (17,5 mm). I'm not familiar with the English terms, so photos may help to show the difference : Regards, Koen Thanks Koen, for helping me out with that information regarding the different Mle1916 bayonets. I agree that there is a scarcity of information available on these Belgian arms. Your photos didn't show much detail of the differences in the blade, so I have added one below so that you may be able to explain which is which, and the various usage, etc. (This photo is part of a display by JPS of the gunboards website, who has a most outstanding collection of WW1 militaria and arms, available to view on his FORUM ) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koen Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hello shippingsteel, The upper one with the T blade is for the gendarmery; the lower one is for all other troops. Production started in 1916. The gunboards forum is famous; some users are amazing experts on military mausers. Regards, Koen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2011 Thanks all, As I do not have a bayonet lug - I am probably not going to look too hard for a bayonet just now... However I did run accross this...Is this one of the "shortened" post-war ones you mention (M1916/24?). It is described as being "17 inches in overall length with a unique shaped 17.5 inch blade. ... .615 barrel ring and will fit the Model 1935 Short Rifle." Which all seems a bit contradictory to me (overall lenght being shorter than the blade?) The picture is not great but seems to show the distinguishing curve on the rear of the muzzle ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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