A typical British Lewis Gunner?

[HMS Resolute]

I am researching the uniform and insignia (specifically) of a normal British Lewis Gunner in WWI.

For example: A British Lewis Gunner in the 4th Army, 55th West Lanc. Div, 166th Brigade, 166th MGC. in 1918.

My question is: What insignia would a Lewis Gunner wear? Would he wear any patches or metal insignia devices in his epaulets by 1918? Basic information like that.

I hope I am not being vague, if you need more information just ask.

[trenchtrotter]

Well for started MGC did not use Lewis guns, they were using Vickers. The Lewis gun was issued to infantry, RA etc. A typical Lewis gunner would have been badged as per his infantry unit and may have had a LG in wreath as a qualification badge.

So your man would have the 55th Div patch (red rose on stem), could have been either Kings, Kings Own, Loyal N Lancs or S Lancs regt. I am not sure re battle patches.

Uniform that of infantry man with pistol instead of rifle.

A brief summary.

TT

[wainfleet]

The insignia worn by members of the 55th Div is comprehensively recorded and doubtless someone will be along to post a scan of the illustration in the divisional history. As TT says, the rose (typically the seven-leaved version) was worn at the top of the sleeves, and battalion colours were worn below the tunic collar. Lewis gun team members would almost certainly have worn the LG proficiency badge, probably in brass. The gunner would have the pistol equipment, but some of the team would have carried rifle and bayonet. They'd also have carried extra magazines in the web panniers made for the purpose, as you perhaps already know.

[HMS Resolute]

The insignia worn by members of the 55th Div is comprehensively recorded and doubtless someone will be along to post a scan of the illustration in the divisional history. As TT says, the rose (typically the seven-leaved version) was worn at the top of the sleeves, and battalion colours were worn below the tunic collar. Lewis gun team members would almost certainly have worn the LG proficiency badge, probably in brass. The gunner would have the pistol equipment, but some of the team would have carried rifle and bayonet. They'd also have carried extra magazines in the web panniers made for the purpose, as you perhaps already know.

I understand that he rose patch (for the 55th div.) would have been worn at the top of the sleeves (both sides?), and that the LG badge was worn on the left sleeve as well. What I do not understand, is how the rest of the insignia was worn. When you say that the Battalion colours were worn below the tunic collar, you've got me confused.

For example, would there be additional insignia worn for the Brigade, Regiment, and Battalion? I do know the correct insignia for the Battalion was a black rectangle, worn vertically. Again, what I do not know is where it was worn in relation to the rose patch. In addition, would there be any epaulet badges? what would they represent?

Sorry for being so ill-informed. I am catching on to how this works, though.

P.S. I'm an American, and British Insignia is something fairly new to me.

Thanks.

[wainfleet]

Not a problem at all. By below the collar, I meant at the back of the neck, just below the centre of the collar, so as to be visible from the back. The rose was the sign for the division, and there was no brigade sign, just the battalion sign. Here are two photos of an officer's uniform - which I sadly no longer own! - of the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, 164 Brigade, showing the battalion sign on the back. You can just see an officer-quality divisional sign on the sleeves.

Other Ranks would have worn a regimental shoulder title in brass on the shoulder strap, though white on khaki slip-ons might have been worn instead, or even sometimes in addition. These were at first worn on the shoulder strap but were more commonly , especially by 1918, sewn like a patch to the top of the sleeves immediately under the shoulder strap. The divisional sign would have been sewn just below.

Do you know which battalion you want to find out about? In 1918 the infantry of 166 Brigade would have comprised 1/10 Kings Liverpool, 1/5 South Lancashire, 1/5 Kings Own and 1/5 Loyal North Lancashire until February 1918.

[Muerrisch]

The insignia worn by members of the 55th Div is comprehensively recorded and doubtless someone will be along to post a scan of the illustration in the divisional history. As TT says, the rose (typically the seven-leaved version) was worn at the top of the sleeves, and battalion colours were worn below the tunic collar. Lewis gun team members would almost certainly have worn the LG proficiency badge, probably in brass. The gunner would have the pistol equipment, but some of the team would have carried rifle and bayonet. They'd also have carried extra magazines in the web panniers made for the purpose, as you perhaps already know.

No, not at all. Only 1st class LG gunners wore the badge. It was a rare team that had more than one such, out of six. The official issue badge was SD worsted.

[daggers]

The shoulder titles, worn on the epaulettes, would be those of the Regiment - King's Liverpool, South Lancs etc. The King's say just that, in brass, capital letters, but with extra bits and pieces if the Battalion was in the Territorial Force. For example, a member of the 5th Battalion (TF) would have a capital T over the figure 5 over KING'S, cast in one piece, with the main word curved. [sometimes 'LIVERPOOL' was used, rather than KINGS.]

This is just the basics - forum member Peter Brydon could probably entertain us for hours with variations within the battalions and time-scales!

I do not believe anything was worn on the epaulettes to denote the status of a Lewis Gunner.

D

[wainfleet]

Point taken and accepted about who wore the badge, Grumpy. I will say, though, that in 30+ years of collecting I've seen four or five tunics with the LG badge on and in every case the badge was in brass, which is why I've said "probably" here, ie. purely on the basis of my own personal observation.

Skimming through Steve Chambers' book on Uniforms and Equipment, of the four LG badges visible, two are clearly brass, one appears to be worsted and the other is indistinct.

[HMS Resolute]

Do you know which battalion you want to find out about? In 1918 the infantry of 166 Brigade would have comprised 1/10 Kings Liverpool, 1/5 South Lancashire, 1/5 Kings Own and 1/5 Loyal North Lancashire until February 1918.

Thanks for the information so far. I am researching the 1/5 bn Kings Own Lancaster Regiment. So:

A lewis gunner from the the 166th Brigade, 1/5 bn Kings Own would have a 'rose' divisional patch on the top of both sleeves, the battalion colours (a black rectangle in this case) would be worn on the back of the tunic below the collar, nowhere else, and the epaulets would have the regimental badge. In this instance, a 'King's Own' regimental badge (some sort of metal, perhaps brass) would be worn on both shoulder straps, or epaulets. When you said that the regimental shoulder titles were sometimes sewn to the very top of the sleeves, just above the division patch, how would that have been done? I can't fathom a brass shoulder title being 'sewn' to a sleeve, but rather merely attached by some sort of pin.

Again, thanks for all your help. Now that you know specifically which battalion I am researching, perhaps things will be easier to understand.

[wainfleet]

Sorry, looking back I see that what I wrote should have been clearer. As you say, it would be difficult to sew brass titles to the sleeve! Brass titles would always have been fixed by split pins to the shoulder strap. I meant to say that cloth slip-on titles, when used in place of (or sometimes even together with) the brass titles, were often sewn to the top of the sleeve.

[HMS Resolute]

Ah hah - thank you. That makes perfect sense. Did everything else I say make sense? (like the divisional patches being on both sleeves).

[Muerrisch]

Point taken and accepted about who wore the badge, Grumpy. I will say, though, that in 30+ years of collecting I've seen four or five tunics with the LG badge on and in every case the badge was in brass, which is why I've said "probably" here, ie. purely on the basis of my own personal observation.

Skimming through Steve Chambers' book on Uniforms and Equipment, of the four LG badges visible, two are clearly brass, one appears to be worsted and the other is indistinct.

I am sure you are right. I think it fair to say that nobody knows what the official material was because [from memory] the RACD entry does not specifiy it. However, the army had a pre-war distinction between skill-at-arms, officially to be worsted and competed for annually, and "trade" which were always to be in gilding metal. But who knows? Another point: the worsted badge would not survive as well as GM for us to see today.

[Gunner Bailey]

I understand some brass Lewis Gunner badges were for sale on ebay recently. One is on sale now. The real thing?

Item number: 220743809333

John

[wainfleet]

That's real, though it's only the middle. The encircling wreath is missing. LG and MG badges can be two-piece, like this one, or all in one. They are not particularly rare or expensive.

[Gunner Bailey]

That's real, though it's only the middle. The encircling wreath is missing. LG and MG badges can be two-piece, like this one, or all in one. They are not particularly rare or expensive.

I didn't see the previous badges for sale but heard they finished around £20. That seems quite expensive to me?

John

[Andrew Upton]

I understand some brass Lewis Gunner badges were for sale on ebay recently. One is on sale now. The real thing?

Item number: 220743809333

Clickable link for ease of finding:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220743809333&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fcollectibles.shop.ebay.com%3A80%2Fi.html%3F_nkw%3D220743809333%26_sacat%3D13962%26_sop%3D10%26_dmd%3D1%26_odkw%3D%26_osacat%3D13962%26_trksid%3Dp3286.c0.m270.l1313%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

[wainfleet]

I didn't see the previous badges for sale but heard they finished around £20. That seems quite expensive to me?

John

It seems quite expensive to me too. I bought a one-piece one at an antique fair for £3 in 2009 and I'm sure they can't have gone up that much since then. It seems the power of ebay has struck again.....

[bantamforgot]

Reading the above made me wonder about my fathers unit as attached, the 9th. battalion Cheshires 19th. div.is shown but what is the insignia above, he was a lewis gunner?

[FROGSMILE]

Reading the above made me wonder about my fathers unit as attached, the 9th. battalion Cheshires 19th. div.is shown but what is the insignia above, he was a lewis gunner?

Insignia above what?

[bantamforgot]

Above the insignia of the 9th. Cheshires, looks like the cross of St. George.

Colin.

[Muerrisch]

As far as I can see it might just as well be a hot cross bun!

Scan etc far too poor for analysis by an old boy.

[Muerrisch]

That's real, though it's only the middle. The encircling wreath is missing. LG and MG badges can be two-piece, like this one, or all in one. They are not particularly rare or expensive.

And then again the TF/TA post-war used officially LG and MG without wreath .... their qualifying standard was too low to qualify for the regular badge. The official versions of these were worsted SD but ...... vanity might suggest a few pennies for a gilding metal version.

By the way, perhaps I should put mine on e bay ..... I have a slack handful of all the LG MG HG S O R etc with and without one-piece wreath, and even more spare wreaths!

[Andrew Upton]

By the way, perhaps I should put mine on e bay ..... I have a slack handful of all the LG MG HG S O R etc with and without one-piece wreath, and even more spare wreaths!

If you have spare wreaths, I have a MG seperate centre lacking a wreath since the one I paired it with was KIA...

[Muerrisch]

If you have spare wreaths, I have a MG seperate centre lacking a wreath since the one I paired it with was KIA...

Unaccessible at moment but will certainly bear you in mind.

[Andrew Upton]

Unaccessible at moment but will certainly bear you in mind.

Thanks