David Filsell Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 I am about to review a new book on the six week life span of junior officers on the Western Front. First glance shows it to be rather good, but we shall see. I have heard this 'average' bandied about before; and a similar one for pilots (but let's stick to non flyers) However is there any real evidence, statistical basis, for this being an accurate calculation - did the average officer up to captain live for justs six weeks. I simply cannot feel that this figure is accurate -is it a Western Front version of of an urban myth? I think a huge anmount of analysis would have been required to support six weeks - and cannot see any reason other than, possibly, 'man-power planning' for it to have been undertaken, and am unaware of any such 'official' figure Any ideas team? best regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 David There is already a thread about this book (I guess the same one) and on the figures somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. I will keep looking unless someone beats me to it. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunesmith Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 It's here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154948 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 There was a recent thread, "life expectancy" started by Grumpy, which you might like to find using the search-engine (sorry I'm not too good at posting links). I am still in the middle of reading "Six Weeks", and am finding it fascinating. In the introduction to the book he quotes Robert Graves "A soldier who had the honour to serve with one of the better divisions ... could count on no more than three months of trench service before being killed or wounded; a junior officer a mere six weeks". I wrote in that previous thread that from the war diary and regimental history I have traced as many 2nd Lieuts. from 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers as I can from the time they join the battalion until they were killed or wounded, and found that the average over the whole war was something more like 12 weeks. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 It's as good a hook as any to hang a title on but will perhaps be a worry to anyone who knows a bit more about the war than BAGF and OWLW. If it is as good as reported, it is s reminder to look past the title as well as the cover when judging a book. In any case, if we don't read a few bad ones, we will have nothing against which to compare the good ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 BAGF and OWLW? You got me there, Tom. What are they? (OK, itll be bl**ding obvious when I see it but I can't see it at present ). Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 BAGF and OWLW? You got me there, Tom. What are they? (OK, itll be bl**ding obvious when I see it but I can't see it at present ). Bernard Black Adder Goes Forth but I don't recognise OWLW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 There also seems to be a similar sort of incredibly short life expectancy for pilots bandied about. It looks as if the figures for a new BE2c pilot in Bloody April 1917 were extrapolated to cover everyone at all stages of the war.Possibly something similar has happened here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Black Adder Goes Forth but I don't recognise OWLW Oh What (a) Lovely War? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 BAGF and OWLW? You got me there, Tom. What are they? (OK, itll be bl**ding obvious when I see it but I can't see it at present ). Bernard Now now, Bernard. Do try to keep up! Oh what a lovely war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Can I have a starter for 10, please. Nothing too tricky...you're making my head hurt. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitedsound Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Hi David The book "6 weeks", which as a layman I thoroughly enjoyed, was also discussed on one of my threads circa end of page 2. http://1914-1918.inv...pic=157397&st=0 Towards the end of the thread I provided the undernoted information :- "My relative arrived in France on 20/4/1916 according to his MIC. He was killed 12 weeks later, to the day, attacking Longueval. However, from what I have gathered T2Lt John Meikle Bain would probably have gone to Etaples first and foremost. For how long I don't know. Maybe a week or two. He then travelled to what has been described as a quieter than usual Ploegsteert/La Bizet/Steenwerke where he remained for several weeks. His battalion then moved to Amiens and Somme where he met his maker. So by my calculations he wasn't far off the 6 weeks mark if we are talking dangerous environs." David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 I have just started reading this book, and I note that in the last sentence of the Prologue the author says "..:the average time a British Army junior officer survived during the Western Front's bloodiest phases was six weeks. (My italics). Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 I have just started reading this book, and I note that in the last sentence of the Prologue the author says "..:the average time a British Army junior officer survived during the Western Front's bloodiest phases was six weeks. (My italics). Martin Which is a bit odd, because in the bloodiest phases I would have thought it could be a lot less. It all depends over what period you assess your average. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 16 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2011 Thanks team for the redirection and comments. Most helpful. My reaction was simply one of thinking the statement suspect. I was a journo long enough not to blame the author for the headline it was almost certainly marketing led. That said the book is the result of a detail plundering of (and I do not mean that in a derogatory sense) of published memoirs. The biblio is fascinating he aint missed much in the way of worthwhile (lieterate) ccounts and it is very well written and presented. That said thanks for the information, much appreciated David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 February , 2011 Share Posted 16 February , 2011 Thanks team for the redirection and comments. Most helpful. My reaction was simply one of thinking the statement suspect. I was a journo long enough not to blame the author for the headline 'It was the Yanks wot won it' sort of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 16 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2011 Cent. Yes that was the sort of thing. We are very picky bunch. The book's title will appeal to many and offend/annoy some. But there you are. The famous Irish headline newspaper was always said to be NUT SCREWS WASHERS AND BOLTS. The story? Madman escapes, rapes a washer woman and runs off. Is it true, was it run? I have no idea, but I very much hope so best regards david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 16 February , 2011 Share Posted 16 February , 2011 Perhaps a Birmingham MSc may look at "leathality" by rank and how supportable this figure was? As an overall figure of "leathality" obviously not - but it may have for certain groups under certain conditions. (My favourite head line was "Super Cali Go Ballistic, Celtic Are Atrocious" - but you have to have some familiarity with Scottish Football for that one. It was at least justifiable - for that one occasion.) David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 21 March , 2011 Admin Share Posted 21 March , 2011 Just started reading this; apart from some silly minor mistakes which grated on me (But I am very picky and pedantic about proof reading) I am finding it interesting. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 March , 2011 Share Posted 21 March , 2011 I think the "average" figure is unattainable, statistically extremely difficult to define and the number of conditions and sub-conditions needing to be written into the search for "life expectancy" would make the search arduous and the answer meaningless. Robert Graves was at heart a journalist, and eventually became a superb poet and author, but GBTAT was an early offering and anything other than the most superficial examination will find it only one step removed from pot-boiling sensationalism. Having said that, some units, and some COs, and some Brigades etc had a very caring attitude to losses, others were seemingly careless of life, and in these the junior leaders would bear the greatest proportionate losses [and having said THAT, has anyone else noticed the appallingly high ratio of junior leader losses in Afghanistan ..... perhaps it was ever thus] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 21 March , 2011 Share Posted 21 March , 2011 Indeed, it was. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 23 March , 2011 Admin Share Posted 23 March , 2011 Should I get upset about wrongly quoted epitaphs and wrongly named soldiers? It is just sloppy to me- the author made a howler with the epitaph on Raymond Asquiths grave, and gets names and ages wrong and made another howler with the post war career of an officer. Silly mistakes which could be avoided. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 Yes, we all should. Sloppy research, sloppy writing, and, dare I say so, some sloppy reviews in a few places. Authors deliberately stick their heads above the parapet ...... I know, I am still be shot at years after my last offering, and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 Is there some source (preferably internet) where there can be serious referenced discussion of these sorts of cases: Honest mistakes or misinterpretation of records Sloppiness Fabrication Sort of on-line wiki Corrigenda. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 Is there some source (preferably internet) where there can be serious referenced discussion of these sorts of cases: Honest mistakes or misinterpretation of records Sloppiness Fabrication Sort of on-line wiki Corrigenda. David David Something I would want to avoid like the plague: "you said......." , "ah, but...", "no but.....", "I'll through my prams out of the window...." Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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