shippingsteel Posted 9 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 February , 2011 Well I dunno .... Not the kind of words I ever thought I'd hear uttered by an aspiring 'trainee' pedant of the GWF. That small slip's probably worthy of expulsion from the School of Pedantry - they do have such high standards you know. Yes, a good pedant is expected to know everything - and on the rare occasion they don't, should possess the skills required to bluff their way through, using bluster and bravado wherever necessary .... (this last taken from the Pedant's Handbook, Chapter 2, Section 4.1) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 February , 2011 What I was really asking was: what is the earliest US produced P13 you have seen? Or do you know when Remington started producing P13s? Chris I am not sure of the exact details of when they started production. From Skennerton's B&CB, production on the P1913s "commenced in late 1915 and first units were finished in January 1916." But it then adds "deliveries of the P1913 bayonet from Remington commenced in early May 1916, and Winchester deliveries commenced a few weeks later. US deliveries totalled nearly 1.5 million." I have never seen any dated in 1915, but have come across a few with early 1916 dates. But I haven't really been going out of my way to look for them - the average P1913 is a common bayonet. If your interested, TonyE (from an earlier thread) was kind enough to supply the following details concerning the contracts placed with Remington during the war for the supply of these bayonets. There is a lot of information, and much of it is very conflicting not only with itself, but also with the details Skennerton provided in the quotes shown above, so make of it what you can. Cheers, S>S For P.'07 bayonets. Remington-U.M.C. 100,000 ordered on Contract B.7230 dated 1 Dec.1914. Delivery 500 per day from 1 Mar.15, increased to 1,000 per day from 1 Apr.15. Status: Completed. For P.'13 bayonets. Remington-U.M.C. 200,000 ordered on Contract B.7235 dated 24 Nov.1914. Delivery 1,000 per day in 9-12 months. Remington-U.M.C. 200,000 ordered on Contract R.2511 dated 10 Feb.1915. Delivery 500 per day from Nov.15 increasing to 1,000 per day in Feb.16. Remington-U.M.C. 600,000 ordered on Contract 94/R/207 dated 21 Sep.1915. Delivery to commence Mar.1916 working up to extra 1,000 per day by June 1916. Remington-U.M.C. Up to 5,000 ordered on Contract 94/B/869 dated 23 Dec.1915. This covered over run on previous contracts. Actually received 4,078 bayonets, 4,392 scabbards. Remington Arms Co. (Eddystone) 1,500,000 ordered on Contract 94/R/39 dated 30 Apr.1915. Delivery 1,000 per day in Feb.16, 2,000 per day in Mar.16, 3,000 per day in Apr.16 rising gradually to 4,000 per day. No. due 1,231,900 (estimated), No. delivered 102,880. Remington Arms Co. (Eddystone) 500,000 ordered on Contract 94/R/207 dated 2 Aug.1915. Delivery 200,000 by 30 Jun.16, another 200,000 by 31 Dec. 16 and final 100,000 by 12 Apr.17. These statistics are taken from a Ministry of Munitions document of contracts and shows production figures up to 31st March 1917. This is why the Eddystone contract has an estimated number due and not the entire amount. Whether those 102,880 bayonets were ever produced at Eddystone or whether the contract was actually manufactured at Rem-U.M.C. is open to speculation. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 February , 2011 Share Posted 9 February , 2011 Thanks - I have Tony's information on contracts saved from that previous thread, and have consulted Skennerton & Richardson. The interesting thing is, I have seen several 1915 dated Pattern 13 bayonets (there were at least two currently on a well known auction site - I believe the months were July and Decemeber 1915) and during a conversation with a member who has not been around for a while (Seph- aka Bootnecks) he told me he had P13s dated for every month in 1915 after April which suggests an earlier production date than most sources (inc Skennerton) and that production commenced immediately with the cessation of the P1907 production. Bootnecks said he had been in contact with Remington and their archives were rather sketchy on the matter but had indicated a "mid 1915" start date for P13 production. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 February , 2011 To me that is very surprising about the early 1915 dated P1913's. If they were being made as you say back then, I would have expected to see more of them (1915's) getting around. Are you sure Bootnecks was talking about the P1913 and not his P1907's.? I do recall him saying he had one of each of those production months for the Remington P1907 (see below). (I rustled up the pic shown below - it is the earliest date I was able to find with a few quick searches of the net) Cheers, S>S The US made '07's were manufactured from April 1915 to December 1915, with, as you correctly point out, a total production run of approx 100,000 items. The US '07's were originally issued with polished blades. I have one of each production month for which Chris can verify. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 February , 2011 Share Posted 10 February , 2011 Frankly no, I am not certain. He may well have been referring to the 1907s and I have misremembered. However I am 100% certain there is a Dec 1915 p1913 on ebay currently: here is one of the seller's pictures Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 February , 2011 However I am 100% certain there is a Dec 1915 P1913 on ebay currently .... Chris I must admit I did manage to find that one after your tip off - but I wasn't game to post the pic due to the crap condition.! I reckoned you would dig it up for me anyway, by the by, just to show me something I didn't know .... So between us at least we have managed to partly verify Skennerton's statement that the production on the P1913s "commenced in late 1915 and first units were finished in January 1916." Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppertales Posted 14 February , 2011 Share Posted 14 February , 2011 I have a 1913 bayonet dated 5-17 with the British proofs crossed out. The crossed out side only has US stamped, no flaming bomb. My other is a 1917 with no date. I still need another 1913 for my other P14 rifle. I guess I need to get to shopping. I don't have a 1907 Remington bayonet.....chris3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2011 I have a 1913 bayonet dated 5-17 with the British proofs crossed out. The crossed out side only has US stamped, no flaming bomb. It appears the overstamped P1913's carry dates ranging from 4 '17 (April) through to 9 '17 (Sept), when the Remington production then switched into the M1917 for US service. The majority of these have the British proofs crossed out with the US stamp added, but there were some P1913's that received the normal US inspection marks, including the ordnance bomb. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 March , 2011 Share Posted 2 March , 2011 Well - after a bit of back and forth with the seller over prices - the early P'13 pictured above is now mine. Condition was not as terrible as it appeared in the photos - much of it was encrusted cosmolene which cleaned off easily. I am pretty certain that this bayonet has spent some time in India (the blade blackening and paint on the scabbard are very similar to many Indian bayonets, as is the heavy cosmo!) - the Blade is actually in excellent shape, as is the scabbard which I think is a WWII vintage example (M/44) Not perfect by any means but: 1) the earliest P'13 I have seen and 2) matches my Indian used Remington P14 in finish/general condition. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 March , 2011 I am pretty certain that this bayonet has spent some time in India (the blade blackening and paint on the scabbard are very similar to many Indian bayonets, as is the heavy cosmo!) - the Blade is actually in excellent shape, as is the scabbard which I think is a WWII vintage example (M/44) Not perfect by any means but: 1) the earliest P'13 I have seen and 2) matches my Indian used Remington P14 in finish/general condition. Chris Yes the M44 is the WW2 manufacturers code for J.B. Brooks & Co of Birmingham. Interesting regarding the Indian connection, as I believe an early shipment of these were sent over to India during the war (100,000 units I think?) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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