A Remington boxed set

[shippingsteel]

Here is the latest little grouping of bayonets that I've put together - all of them totally British inspired but made by Americans during the Great War.

These were all produced out of the Remington Arms factory and saw varying degrees of service with both these major armies of the Allied forces.

The years of manufacture shown on these provide just a little evidence of the ongoing contribution made by the American industrial machine throughout the war.

Each of these bayonets on their own is of little significance, they are not overly rare or special, but some of them are just that little harder to find.

(Putting all this lot together in the same frame is one of those little achievements that only another dedicated collector would ever truly understand)

From top to bottom they are :-

P1907 Remington made 8 1915 , for the SMLE rifle, well used by British troops

P1913 Remington made 10 1916 , for the P14 rifle, appears to have been never used by British troops

P1913 Remington made 9 1917 , for the P14 rifle, well used by American troops (this one transferred from British production for the M1917 rifle)

M1917 Remington made in 1918 , for the M1917 rifle, appears to have been barely used by American troops

Cheers, S>S

[David B]

SS,

As I am an old dummy from the back of Bourke who just slapped a bayonet on a rifle without knowing what pattern or where it came from, could you please spare a minute to explain

what the difference is between them ? Apart from a couple of cuts in the handle they all look the same to me.

[shippingsteel]

Well the bottom 3 are virtually identical, all made to fit the P14/M17 rifle 'twins' that were being made in the United States during the war. The cuts in the handle were put there to identify the difference between these bottom 3 and the top one, which is the garden variety P1907 for the good old SMLE rifle. The dimensions of all 4 are the same except for the crossguard piece which incorporates the 'muzzle ring' for attaching to the rifle. If you look closely you can see the bottom 3 have a much longer crossguard, (and 'muzzle ring offset') which is there because the bayonet attaches much further below the rifle than on the SMLE. Quite simple really ....

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

I will leave it to S>S to explain the difference between the P.'07 and the P.'13 bayonets as it is his post.

With regard to the one you say looks like it has never been used, don't forget that the P.'14 rifles and bayonets mostly went straight to store in WWI and were not used.

Large numbers had been sent to the new Baltic states immediately after the war and of those that were left post Weedon in WW2, some were issued to the Home Guard where they would not have seen much use other than being carried (although the policy was for the HG to use .30 calibre weapons) and I suspect the same applies to many of those issued for training.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

, some were issued to the Home Guard where they would not have seen much use other than being carried

A few were welded onto steel tubes to form pikes!

[centurion]

Re the sub title to this OP

The razor and other shaving products were made by an offshoot of the Rand Remington typewriter company. Remington the gunsmiths (founded 1816) sold their typewriter business to Rand at the end of the 19th century.

[deadin]

The picture appears to show a "clean-out" hole on the bottom one, but none on the middle two.

I've never owned a P-14. Is the exterior muzzle diameter the same as on the P-17?

[shippingsteel]

The picture appears to show a "clean-out" hole on the bottom one, but none on the middle two.

I've never owned a P-14. Is the exterior muzzle diameter the same as on the P-17?

Thats right. The British P1913 bayonet never had the clearance hole added. When the Americans took on the Remington production for the M1917 rifle the only change they made to the bayonet was to include the clearance hole. This is the now the easiest way to tell the difference between the two models. They both still have the same 'muzzle ring diameter' and are interchangeable between the two rifles (P14/M17).

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

The minor differences between all these bayonets are usually found in the details that are stamped on each ricasso, so will add the photos.

The top line shows the Pattern number, the second line is the date of manufacture, and at the bottom the factory roundel of Remington within a circle.

Note there is no sign of the crown or royal cypher on these British bayonets that were produced in America. More photos to follow ...

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And the remaining two photos .... (they won't all fit in the one post)

So the first one is in the same format as the others shown, however the last example is a bit of an aberration (these are a little harder to find).

When the Americans took over control of the Remington production they also decided to do away with stamping the date of manufacture.

So the M1917 bayonet was never dated, they just had the Pattern number of 1917 showing over the factory roundel, which makes it difficult to say exactly when they were made.

When the calendar year rolled over from 1917 into 1918 the guys at the factory weren't sure what to do, so they began stamping the bayonets with the 1918 year date (which was incorrect).

The stamp should have remained as 1917 being the Pattern number NOT the date of manufacture. This was rapidly remedied but not before quite a few had got through stamped with the 1918.

So these bayonets made very early in 1918 are the only M1917 versions that can be categorically dated, and is why I have included such an example here.

Cheers, S>S

[David B]

SS,

Thanks for those very detailed explanations, to be honest I never realized there were so many patterns, all we ever used to do was grab the bayonet out of its scabbard and

shove it on the end of the SMLE in true parade ground fashion.

[militariaone]

Thank you, for your post from a fellow P-17 Junkie.

Regards,

Lance

[TonyE]

Please! M1917 not "P.17".

Regards

TonyE

(living up to his signature)

[4thGordons]

Note there is no sign of the crown or royal cypher on these British bayonets that were produced in America. Cheers, S>S

.....I beg to differ on this, turn them over. No royal cypher but there certainly is a crown on my couple of examples .

Chris

[shippingsteel]

What is this.?? The GWF school of Pedantry has its Big Day Out, with both the Master and Apprentice making simultaneous appearances .... of course the crowd goes wild (not.!)

(Keen readers will have noted I have not gotten to the reverse ricasso pics yet - thanks for reminding me Chris)

(You will also note reference to " the crown or royal cypher " which obviously doesn't include inspection marks whether they may or may not include said crowns in any shape or form)

(Note to self - always remember to insert disclaimer clause at the bottom of each and every post .... MOST IMPORTANT)

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

So the M1917 bayonet was never dated, they just had the Pattern number of 1917 showing over the factory roundel,

Cheers, S>S

hahaha I was just warming up...

I thought only the British used PATTERN numbers, the US uses MODEL no?

Good clean examples of the bayonets though... I am still looking for a decent [brit]cancelled/[uS] issued example.

Chris

EDIT: just thought of a question... what is the earliest date you have seen on a Pattern 1913 Bayonet?

Edited 6 February , 2011 by 4thGordons

[shippingsteel]

Thank you, for your post from a fellow P-17 Junkie.

Regards,

Lance

Very nice lineup of scabbards for the M1917 bayonet. They are in great condition, especially that first one - NICE.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Just thought of a question... what is the earliest date you have seen on a Pattern 1913 Bayonet?

That one would have to be .... ahhh 1913, no.?

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

That one would have to be .... ahhh 1913, no.?

Cheers, S>S

Well I dunno - I have never seen an American one dated earlier than late 1915.

So you have SEEN a 1913 dated P13 bayonet in the flesh? I know there was the 1913 trials bayonet with a hooked quillon made in the UK (Enfield and Vickers?)

What I was really asking was: what is the earliest US produced P13 you have seen? Or do you know when Remington started producing P13s

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for those very detailed explanations, to be honest I never realized there were so many patterns ....

But wait there's more .... not only are there different Patterns but also the variations that are found within those Patterns (or Models, whatever.!)

These next photos show the inspection markings found on the reverse ricasso of the bottom two bayonets, that were used by the Americans.

The first was originally made as a P1913 bayonet, but during the transition period into US production the British marks were cancelled out, and at the same time it was stamped for US service.

So essentially it then became a M1917 bayonet and these were amongst the very first to be issued with the M1917 rifle.

This type were only marked like this for a month or two during the changeover of production, and so are now relatively harder to find.

The second photo shows the standard US inspection marks found on the M1917 ricasso, including a partial "eagle head" viewer mark, the "flaming bomb" ordnance mark and the bend test X.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Re the sub title to this OP

The razor and other shaving products were made by an offshoot of the Rand Remington typewriter company. Remington the gunsmiths (founded 1816) sold their typewriter business to Rand at the end of the 19th century.

Not sure of the date and model of this but it weighs the best part of 50lbs!

apologies for the dust.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Not sure of the date and model of this but it weighs the best part of 50lbs!

Chris

Are we having fun yet, Chris.??

[shippingsteel]

Is he asleep yet.?

Good. Now where was I .... oh yeah.!

No discussion of the American bayonets would be complete without making mention of the contribution made by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, who were also involved in these contracts alongside Remington at the time.

Winchester made both the P'14 and M1917 rifles and their matching bayonets, but in much reduced numbers when compared with Remington's huge overall production.

The bayonets marked with the big letter W are these days particularly sought after by collectors. The one illustrated is a P1913 Winchester made in 12 1916.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

During the war, Remington were not just confined to producing solely for the British and American armies, but also supplied a variety of different weapons to the other Allied forces.

These included contracted sales of large numbers of Mosin-Nagant rifles to the Russians, and of substantial quantities of the Berthier rifles to the French army.

In the early stages of the war, they also received an order from the French for their virtually obsolete single shot Rolling Block rifle, which was to be used to arm rear-echelon troops.

This rifle was calibered in the French 8mm Lebel service round and became known as Mle 1915. It was also supplied with a Remington made sword bayonet like the one shown below.

(And as my collection is solely restricted to the 'sword bayonets', that also is the end of the line for me folks.!)

Cheers, S>S

[centurion]

Are we having fun yet, Chris.??

Well if you but sub headings in like "Didn't they just make shavers.??" what do you expect? The typewriter is from the firm that made the shavers!