Hindenburg Cross - its seems to be black

[corisande]

Can anyone help me identify this version of Hindenburg Cross

It was awarded to Michael Keogh, the Sgt Major in Casement's Irish Brigade, for the family believe, front line service during WW1

The family have sent me a colour photo and that is the definition I have been sent. I started off with Black and white version from a photo of the chap in later life and thought that it was the normal one in bronze, but this is different, in that it has black on it

I had the suspicion that he might have coloured it black himself, but I found a photo of a similar one, but it did not have an explanation as to why the difference. I stress that the one below is NOT Keogh's, I only include it to show tyhat similar exist

[SiegeGunner]

The Ehrenkreuz was not awarded - it had to be applied for. Only the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (Combatants Cross - bronze finish) had swords and only the Ehrenkreuz für Hinterbliebene (NoK Cross - without swords) was black. The example in your photo appears to be an Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer that has been finished in black and gold.

Applications were processed by many different agencies, including German diplomatic missions abroad.

[corisande]

Thanks,

But I am still not clear why this one is finished in black and gold

It is a combatants cross in that it has the swords, but why is it in black and gold (and not unique s I found the other photo of a black and gold one) None of the reference material I have looked at mentions a black and gold version.

[corisande]

And the other medal photo they sent me was this odd one

I could fine little on the web about this Constitution day medal, but again the version Keogh has is "non standard" in that it has the two little red crosses under the eagles wings, and I cannot find a similar one anywhere

Anyone any ideas on this one either.

Basically in his memoirs Keogh claims to have spent some months at the front as a German machine-gunner in 1918 during the 2nd Battle of the Marne. I felt that the Hindenburg cross confirmed that, but having seen that it was black and gold, I am not sure if that confirms or not

[SiegeGunner]

I'm not really a medals person, Corisande, but I do happen to have an Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer. It is a very plain bronze-coloured medal that bears a superficial resemblance, at a distance, to the French Croix de Guerre. Unless one of our medal experts knows of an official version in black and gold, I would venture that perhaps Keogh or someone else had it finished in black and gold for display purposes, maybe to bear visual comparison with the black and silver finish of the EK.

The photo of the medal being worn appears to show it in its original plain bronze finish, so Keogh himself was evidently content with it 'as issued'.

As regards the all-black versions you have photos of, I wonder whether, during the Third Reich period, next-of-kin of a WW1 combatant who died some time after claiming his Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer would paint the medal black and wear it in his memory, as did NoK of war casualties with the issued black version of the Ehrenkreuz.

[corisande]

Thanks for the input - I am even less of a medal's person myself!

My initial feeling was that he had tarted it up himself, for the same reason that you allude to - in other words, who in Dublin would know the difference, if passing off was intended. But when I found the photo of another similar black and gold Hindenburg Cross I was not so sure.

Given Keogh was a foreigner, I wondered if there was a "foreigner's version" around, but could find nothing. I certainly do not want to suggest to his family that anything is "odd" with his one, unless I am sure that nothing in Black and Gold was issued on the Hindenburg Cross.

[James Blonde]

With regards the Hindenberg Crosses many German veterans never bothered to register their claim for the award.

Despite this almost 6,250,000 Combatant,

1,200,000 Non Combatant,

720,000 "Widow's" versions

were approved for issue.

I have never seen a black & "gold" Combatant Cross (more like a polished bronze) version in all the years I am collecting, or mention of them on various forums, so this leads me to believe that any that turn up have been painted to suit the veterans taste, or at worst to fool collectors, many of whom collect this award for the multitude of maker marks and stamps to the rear.

There certainly was no "foreigner" version of the Hindenburg Cross for Combatant or non-combatant, the ones to be found on post World War 1 Austrian, Hungarian and Bulgarian medal bars are the standard bronze looking versions.

The award regardless of classification had to be applied for from 1934 onwards, the relevant documentation being presented with the application as proof of entitlement even when sought by Widows or parents of the fallen.

In all reality, its more than likely a home-made "bling-bling" job.

From the black and white picture above it also appears he has hung a Prussian Wound Badge

on a ribbon as well, when in reality these were worn pinned to the breast.

Connaught Stranger

[corisande]

Thanks for that full reply.

My feeling was that he was trying to pass it off as an Iron Cross on the streets of Dublin. The family have sent me a photo of the documentation (it is in the background of the photo immediately above this) but the photo does confirm that the award is genuine.

With some more digging I have now got a colour copy of the wound medal and that confirm (I think) that bling was the answer. Can you conform that the wound medal has been touched up s well

[George Armstrong Custer]

the multitude of maker marks and stamps to the rear.

I have a Hindenburg Cross, court mounted with an EKII. I'm not a medal collector, so hadn't really paid much attention to the detail. But after reading this I see that it is marked on the rear with 'St.&L.' As well as the cross having the integral combatants crossed swords, there is a small set of bronze or gilt metal crossed swords on the ribbon.

George

[James Blonde]

I have a Hindenburg Cross, court mounted with an EKII. I'm not a medal collector, so hadn't really paid much attention to the detail. But after reading this I see that it is marked on the rear with 'St.&L.' As well as the cross having the integral combatants crossed swords, there is a small set of bronze or gilt metal crossed swords on the ribbon.

George

St. & L. = Steinhauer & Luck of Lüdenscheid.

Yours sounds like the standard set up,

but many mounted awards can be found without the crossed swords on the ribbon.

Connaught Stranger

[James Blonde]

Thanks for that full reply.

My feeling was that he was trying to pass it off as an Iron Cross on the streets of Dublin. The family have sent me a photo of the documentation (it is in the background of the photo immediately above this) but the photo does confirm that the award is genuine.

With some more digging I have now got a colour copy of the wound medal and that confirm (I think) that bling was the answer. Can you conform that the wound medal has been touched up s well

To my eyes and the small size of the picture its a standard Black Wound badge that has seen a bit of polishing, the high relief areas did encounter wear with time, the ribbon I believe is of Irish Origin.

Connaught Stranger.

[corisande]

Thanks for the explanation, and I liked the

"the ribbon I believe is of Irish Origin."

Wonder why you thought that

[James Blonde]

Thanks for the explanation, and I liked the

"the ribbon I believe is of Irish Origin."

Wonder why you thought that

OR

Possibly because it matches no ribbons in my

"Bänderkatalog Orden & Ehrenzeichen, Deutschland 1800 - 1945"

It is in fact the ribbon of the 1916 Medal instituted in 1942 by the Irish Government.

Connaught Stranger.

[corisande]

"It is in fact the ribbon of the 1916 Medal instituted in 1942 by the Irish Government."

Interesting, Keogh would have liked to have had that 1916 medal

To be fair, he has a unique set of medals

1. Mons Star

2. The German ones you see

3. and he has Irish Black & Tan Medal

[James Blonde]

"It is in fact the ribbon of the 1916 Medal instituted in 1942 by the Irish Government."

Interesting, Keogh would have liked to have had that 1916 medal

To be fair, he has a unique set of medals

1. Mons Star

2. The German ones you see

3. and he has Irish Black & Tan Medal

Yes, its a very unique set.

The majority of the 1916 medals were awarded to the Dublin Brigade of the Old Irish Republican Army, and a small pension went with it.

I am not 100% sure but in the B&W picture the medal to the right of the Hindenburg Cross could be a Prussian / German award too, the figure in the center appears to be wearing a picklehaube, however the set up of the ribbon mounting ring and the attachment to the medal, is very similar to those encountered on unofficial commemorative medals.

Is there any chance to get a full view of this medal?

Connaught Stranger

P.S. he would have been issued with a Certificate of awarding / Ürkunde for the Hindenberg Combatant Cross,

possibly via the German Embassy in Dublin(?)

And he would also have received a certificate / Ürkunde

with the Wound Badge.

Is it recorded anywhere, if and when he was wounded?

[corisande]

The other German award

has the same bad definition. The family have labeled it as such. Any ideas what it is?

When he was at the front line he appears to have been with a Bavarian regiment if that is of any help

[James Blonde]

Pity the pictures are so small, however,

it looks to be what I suggested, an unofficial Commemorative medal.

Hundreds if not thousands of whats known today by medal collectors as "Patriotika" medals

exist in many forms and sizes, commemorating war achievements and Regiments

often with the head of the Kaiser Wilhelm II or figures like Hindenberg, etc..etc..

No chance of getting bigger pictures of the items from the family, showing both sides ?

However the ribbon appears to be that of

the W.W.2 Nazi Kreigsverdienskreuz (KVK) / War Merit Cross.

Connaught Stranger.

[corisande]

This is the cert for his Hindenburg Cross

It is in the background and that is the best I can get. When I blow it up it appears to have been issued in Berlin to "Ingenieur Georg Kehoe". He was working in Berlin in 1934, so would have got it there. The thing is compunded in that he spells his name both Kohoe and Keogh in documents, and also had German papers in other names. Served in Freikorps as something different.

I have not seen a cert for the wound

Keogh's life was colourful, and it is difficult to tell fact from fiction in many instances. However my page on him is here

He appears to have been wounded in the second battle of the Marne. But I have have a lot of difficulty in separating wound from trench fever from Spanish flu

Ditto with whether he really did rescue Hitler or not. I can put them in Trukenstrasse Barracks in Munich at the same time, but cannot prove that the incident actually happened.

The Director of Irish Bureau of Military History actually prefaces Keogh's statements with e proviso that he had doubts about Keogh's veracity.

[SiegeGunner]

The Certificate pictured in post #18 is for the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer, the cross awarded to non-combatant WW1 participants (bronze cross without swords), so it does not go with the cross shown in the opening post.

Due to the vast number required, Ehrenkreuze were made by many different companies, and I recall that a partial list of known makers was posted on the forum some time ago. Mine is marked THW, which was on the list, but was not expanded/identified.

I seem to remember reading that the small crossed-swords insignia on the ribbon denoted Freikorps service - but could be mistaken.

I would be interested in our medal experts' opinion on my earlier suggestion that all-over blackened versions of the Combatant's Cross may be unofficial 'conversions' by NoK following the death of the recipient, to emulate the original black finish of the cross (without swords) given to the NoK of wartime casualties. In the climate of the later 1930s and during WW2, familes whose WW1 veteran member had since died, would no doubt be eager for their patriotic service to be remembered, perhaps especially if they were not otherwise actively involved in the party or military.

[corisande]

The Certificate pictured in post #18 is for the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer, the cross awarded to non-combatant WW1 participants (bronze cross without swords), so it does not go with the cross shown in the opening post.

Weirder and weirder. Certainly Keogh's family has them both. I cannot make out the writing that he seems to have added to the certificate

[themonsstar]

Here is a certificate of the Hindenburg Cross & one for the Wound Badge

Wound Badge certificate and badge

[corisande]

Perhaps someone can comment on Keoghs cert. If I go to Wikipedia, they say there were 3 flavours of Hindenburg Cross

* Honor Cross for Combatants (Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer) – for soldiers who fought on the front.

* Honor Cross for War Participants (Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer) – for non-combatant soldiers

* Honor Cross for Next-of-Kin (Ehrenkreuz für Hinterbliebene) – for the next-of-kin of fallen soldiers

Keogh's cert says something like "Ehrenskreuz fur arbeitsteilnehmer" (though the key word is not clear) and I can find no references to that

On second thoughts it probably is Kriegsteilnehmer. In which case he should not have had one with swords? !

[corisande]

One scenario is that he never went to the front and was never wounded. He got the participants non-combatant medal for work behind the front line, and acquired the medal with swords and the wound badge by chance. Though the medal with swords he could only have picked up after 1934

I have no idea where he might have got hold of the "ribbon of the W.W.2 Nazi Kreigsverdienskreuz (KVK) / War Merit Cross." He did not go to Germany after WW2 to the best of my belief.

[ph0ebus]

However the ribbon appears to be that of

the W.W.2 Nazi Kreigsverdienskreuz (KVK) / War Merit Cross.

Connaught Stranger.

I was actually thinking the same thing (as I had seen that ribbon a few times over the years) but being a total novice in regards to collecting medals I opted to keep my mouth shut.

Very strange things going on with the subject in this thread!

Daniel

[James Blonde]

The Certificate pictured in post #18 is for the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer, the cross awarded to non-combatant WW1 participants (bronze cross without swords), so it does not go with the cross shown in the opening post.

Due to the vast number required, Ehrenkreuze were made by many different companies, and I recall that a partial list of known makers was posted on the forum some time ago. Mine is marked THW, which was not on the list.

I seem to remember reading that the small crossed-swords insignia on the ribbon denoted Freikorps service - but could be mistaken.

I would be interested in our medal experts' opinion on my earlier suggestion that all-over blackened versions of the Combatant's Cross may be unofficial 'conversions' by NoK following the death of the recipient, to emulate the original black finish of the cross (without swords) given to the NoK of wartime casualties. In the climate of the later 1930s and during WW2, familes whose WW1 veteran member had since died, would no doubt be eager for their patriotic service to be remembered, perhaps especially if they were not otherwise actively involved in the party or military.

Far from being "an expert" I will offer my thoughts here:-

I do not really see the point of doing such, why stop at painting them black? the ribbon for the original "widows" version was different than the ribbon for the Combatant and Non-Combatant versions or the fact that minuscule numbers of such Combatant Cross items have been seen over the years.

Also the original "widows" cross was issued with a directive that it was to be worn with pride by the Mother, Wife of the man who died, therefore, would not these "retro" black Combatant pieces be worn in such a manner, but to my way of thinking such unofficial action as you suggest might be deemed to be lowering the honour of those who fell in battle rather than passing from natural causes or even dying of wounds, illness, years later.

The lack of any black combatant crosses being seen in WW2 period pictures and news reels.

It would be hard to determine just how many W.W.1 veterans were active or not active in the party, however, even in the W.W.2 period the Germans were a stickler for regulations, any W.W.1 veteran in an official position either military or civil was required to follow the guidelines with regards medals,insignia and awards from early 1934 to the wars end in 1945.

Serving military personnel and those in high civil positions of authority were required to remove all the unofficial commemorative medals from their medal bars, this would include amongst them:-

Kyfferhauserbund Medals.

German Legion of Honour Medals.

The Marine Flaunderskreuz.

the so-called Campaign crosses for:- Verdun, Champagne, Somme and Argonnen.

Local Military veteran Association Service Medals.

Some of the Wiemar period awards.

The small swords were originally intend from pre-WW1 into WW2 to denote a combatant award on the small ribbon bars for the military tunic, when the full sized medals were not required on official occasions, some of the unofficial awards used the swords for the same effect on the unofficial medal ribbons, but pictures of awards with swords and mini swords added to the ribbon together can be seen, many of the bars being put together by civilian medal tailors in local towns and cities, either by a misunderstanding of the regulations or at the customers request either during, after, the First World War ended.

And finally it has to be taken into consideration that some of the Associated German States

flaunted Prussian regulation and put their awards first on the bar, followed by the Prussian awards, these might have been carried over into the pre-WW2 years.

Just my two bobs worth.

Connaught Stranger