Hindenburg Cross - its seems to be black

[SiegeGunner]

Keogh's cert says something like "Ehrenskreuz fur arbeitsteilnehmer" (though the key word is not clear) and I can find no references to that

On second thoughts it probably is Kriegsteilnehmer. In which case he should not have had one with swords? !

As I said in post #19 and you acknowledged in post #20.

[corisande]

Very strange things going on with the subject in this thread!

Casements Irish Brigade, the attempt to recruit a Brigade from Irish POWs to return to fight the British in Ireland, is a strange area of WW1. And the man who ended up as the senior NCO, Michael Keogh (this link is my page on him), is himself a very colourful character. It is all stranger than fiction, but that whole thing with the Irish Brigade was that too - men in submarines going to Ireland, being killed under odd circumstances, going back home and the British Government deciding not to punish them, and even men like Keogh the senior man keeping his Mons Star (assuming that it was his, that he had!)

It has been very difficult to get any sources of material on them, let alone reliable resources. So I am having to check details that are beyond my knowledge, hence this thread.

So far it is looking as if Keogh did not serve in the German front line, and swapped non-combatant's Hindenburg Cross for the front line version. I would assume that it could be done. Whether he actually was wounded or not, again I have no proof one way or the other. He could have been, or he could not.

[SiegeGunner]

One scenario is that he never went to the front and was never wounded. He got the participants non-combatant medal for work behind the front line, and acquired the medal with swords and the wound badge by chance. Though the medal with swords he could only have picked up after 1934.

Any of the variants of the Ehrenkreuz could only have been 'picked up' after July 1934.

[ph0ebus]

If that is a Kriegsverdienstkreuz ribbon it dates from post 1939:

On 18 October 1939, the anniversary of the German victory over Napoleon at Leipzig in 1813, Hitler instituted the War Merit Cross, or Kriegsverdienstkreuz, usually known as the KVK.

From:

Clickity Click

-Daniel

[SiegeGunner]

Far from being "an expert" I will offer my thoughts here:-

I do not really see the point of doing such, why stop at painting them black? the ribbon for the original "widows" version was different than the ribbon for the Combatant and Non-Combatant versions or the fact that minuscule numbers of such Combatant Cross items have been seen over the years.

Also the original "widows" cross was issued with a directive that it was to be worn with pride by the Mother, Wife of the man who died, therefore, would not these "retro" black Combatant pieces be worn in such a manner, but to my way of thinking such unofficial action as you suggest might be deemed to be lowering the honour of those who fell in battle rather than passing from natural causes or even dying of wounds, illness, years later.

The lack of any black combatant crosses being seen in WW2 period pictures and news reels.

Thanks for your thoughts, CS, and for straightening out my misunderstanding about the 'small swords'. My possible explanation for observations of some blackened Combatant crosses is purely a theory, based on knowledge of conditions in Germany at the time, when everyone was at pains to demonstrate their patriotic credentials. I don't think a blackened cross with swords would have been seen as any kind of disrespect towards NoK wearing the black 'Hinterbliebene' cross without swords. Do you happen to know whether Combatant crosses were issued posthumously to NoK of combatants who died between 1918 and 1934?

Your point about a lack of images of blackened Combatant crosses being worn is telling on one level, but then perhaps not surprising if the practice did exist but was uncommon. How often, by contrast, does one see photos of the black 'Hinterbliebene' cross being worn (given that only about 800,000 of them were ever applied for)?

Given the huge number of crosses produced, I suppose it's possible that some Combatant crosses were mistakenly finished in black, or perhaps the answer is just a few small boys playing with modelling paints in the 50s/60s - in any event, some black Combatant crosses evidently do exist. Perhaps each has its own explanation - but if dabbling long after the event is the reason, you would perhaps expect examples to crop up in other finishes.

[ph0ebus]

Thanks for your thoughts, CS, and for straightening out my misunderstanding about the 'small swords'. My possible explanation for observations of some blackened Combatant crosses is purely a theory, based on knowledge of conditions in Germany at the time, when everyone was at pains to demonstrate their patriotic credentials. I don't think a blackened cross with swords would have been seen as any kind of disrespect towards NoK wearing the black 'Hinterbliebene' cross without swords. Do you happen to know whether Combatant crosses were issued posthumously to NoK of combatants who died between 1918 and 1934?

Your point about a lack of images of blackened Combatant crosses being worn is telling on one level, but then perhaps not surprising if the practice did exist but was uncommon. How often, by contrast, does one see photos of the black 'Hinterbliebene' cross being worn (given that only about 800,000 of them were ever applied for)?

Given the huge number of crosses produced, I suppose it's possible that some Combatant crosses were mistakenly finished in black, or perhaps the answer is just a few small boys playing with modelling paints in the 50s/60s - in any event, some black Combatant crosses evidently do exist. Perhaps each has its own explanation - but if dabbling long after the event is the reason, you would perhaps expect examples to crop up in other finishes.

This reminds me of a recent thread I started about Prussian Wound Badges, and it was noted that some recipients bought cut-out versions, which certainly were worn. Perhaps this is simply a comparable phenomenon.

EDIT: Have a look here:

Clickity Click

That looks like a blackened combatant cross to me...?

-Daniel

[SiegeGunner]

The WW2 KVK medal ribbon contains the same colours as the WW1 Ehrenkreuz, albeit arranged differently, so perhaps at some stage someone picked up a length of that ribbon in the belief that it was either correct or 'would do'.

I must incidentally take this opportunity to thank Corisande and several of his compatriots for sharing their research into Irish aspects of the Great War era, which I certainly find fascinating and often eye-opening. It's good to see this period of Irish history examined with the same objectivity and absence of rancour that characterises the best of research into the Great War era today.

[ph0ebus]

The WW2 KVK medal ribbon contains the same colours as the WW1 Ehrenkreuz, albeit arranged differently, so perhaps at some stage someone picked up a length of that ribbon in the belief that it was either correct or 'would do'.

I must incidentally take this opportunity to thank Corisande and several of his compatriots for sharing their research into Irish aspects of the Great War era, which I certainly find fascinating and often eye-opening. It's good to see this period of Irish history examined with the same objectivity and absence of rancour that characterises the best of research into the Great War era today.

I second that. This thread is most interesting and I look forward to seeing where it goes!

-Daniel

[SiegeGunner]

That looks like a blackened combatant cross to me...?

I don't think it's black, Dan - it looks more like a clean example in darkish bronze. My one, which I picked up for a few DM in a second-hand shop in Göttingen on a pen-friend exchange in 1969, is about the same colour, but with the wreath and other prominences lightened by 'wear'. I presume that the many different companies that made Ehrenkreuze were provided with a standard mould or die, but gather that there were differences in the composition of the metal used, and therefore some variations in finish.

[ph0ebus]

I don't think it's black, Dan - it looks more like a clean example in darkish bronze. My one, which I picked up for a few DM in a second-hand shop in Göttingen on a pen-friend exchange in 1969, is about the same colour, but with the wreath and other prominences lightened by 'wear'. I presume that the many different companies that made Ehrenkreuze were provided with a standard mould or die, but gather that there were differences in the composition of the metal used, and therefore some variations in finish.

That would explain the color variations, to be sure. I'll keep looking...I'm home sick so I have little else to occupy me at the moment!

-Daniel

[SiegeGunner]

Where are you homesick for, Dan?

This thread is most interesting and I look forward to seeing where it goes!

Where the thread should go is back to the colourful Mr Keogh, and I hope Corisande will forgive us for a number of (hopefully not unhelpful) discursions.

[corisande]

This thread is most interesting and I look forward to seeing where it goes! ....the thread should go back to the colourful Mr Keogh

Unfortunately that is where it has to go, to the current Mr Keogh. Only I have the problem of finding how to raise the matter. One of the things I am quite good at in researching Irish military history is tracking down living relatives. It broadens one perspective on what went on, and by talking to a number of them you get a better overall picture and better facts.

The downside is when one gets inconsistencies in family stories, in this case the certificate for a non-combatant medal, but coupled with with a combatant medal in the family, then there is really only one conclusion one can draw. And I am not sure if the family want to hear it. There have been a couple of other examples recently where the grandfather of one of my correspondents was acquitted of murder in Dublin when he was in the ADRIC - acquitted on perjured evidence. Then there was the grandfather of someone else who was fingered as the man that burnt Cork. By those standards Michael Keogh larding the tale of serving in the front line is not so dire, but may well destroy a family belief.

There is a lot more interest in Ireland today in WW1 and the events around it. Discussions are (mainly) quite balanced an non-acrimonious. It is to me fascinating, but sometimes difficult.

[James Blonde]

Where are you homesick for, Dan? Where the thread should go is back to the colourful Mr Keogh, and I hope Corisande will forgive us for a number of (hopefully not unhelpful) discursions.

Dear Siege Gunner

As the thread is entitled

Hindenburg Cross - its seems to be black

then in my humble opinion Mr. Keogh himself is somewhat responsible for the way this thread is developing, with him having an award document for one form of a medal and wearing yet another form of it in period photographs.

Also his wearing of another Prussian award (the wound badge) in a somewhat unique irregular manner, then that can only lead us to discuss the why and wherefores in regards this subject.

In all honesty can we say we have strayed to far from the subject matter?

With regards the Hindenburg Honour Crosses, many of the earlier produced ones were of real bronze, later war variations were made of bronzed iron, (and interestingly enough post WW2 variations were of bronzed iron and made to replace worn or lost WW1 veterans awards came without a maker mark or stamp to the rear.)

There is also a difference in the design apart from the swords with regards the Combatant and non-Combatant in that the Combatant has a wreath of Laurel leaves and the non-Combatant as a wreath of Oak leaves.

The ribbons for the Combatant and non-Combatant were based on the versions ribbon of the Prussian 1870 - 71 War with France Combatant medal.

The ribbon on the Widows Cross is based upon the ribbon of the 1870 - 71 War with France Non-Combatant medal.

Only the width dimensions of the ribbon were changed for the Hindenburg Crosses.

Connaught Stranger,

[SiegeGunner]

Being as it concerns a German medal, this thread has not attracted the usual attention of the forum's medal collectors, and I'd like to thank Connaught Stranger, who does specialise in 'the other side of the fence', for dealing patiently and informatively with those of us who have some knowledge of the subject without pretending to any kind of expertise. It does seem that there may be an element of fancy or perhaps fantasy in the presentation of Mr Keogh's medals, and I think we need to wish our Pal, Corisande, all the best in his continuing research. My own experience of 'befuddled' family accounts is that they are almost always rooted in some kind of fact, although the detail may turn out to be other than that recounted in family legend.

[robins2]

To my eyes and the small size of the picture its a standard Black Wound badge that has seen a bit of polishing, the high relief areas did encounter wear with time, the ribbon I believe is of Irish Origin.

Connaught Stranger.

wound medals were worn on the breast, as far as I know, they were not issued or worn with ribbons, the exaple shown appears to be silver issue (wounded twice?), I have had other medals such as the first example which were replica's of the original, made shortly after the war and issued/obtained as commemorative/vetrans groups etc.

[James Blonde]

Hallo robin2,

the way the wound medal is displayed by Mr. Keogh has been identified as a personal choice, the fact that the ribbon is an Irish Commemorative 1916 Rising one confirms that.

In the small colour picture provided it appears to be the Black version with the brassy yellow

metal showing through where the paint has worn off or has been polished down.

It has to be be verified yet that Mr. Keogh even entitled to a Wound Badge as no award document seems to be present.

With regards "I have had other medals such as the first example which were replica's of the original, made shortly after the war and issued/obtained as commemorative/vetrans groups etc. "

which item do you refer too? the Hindenburg Combatant Cross? as the Hindenburg Cross was not issued upon application until 1934, it was one of the first medals, if not the first medal that the Nazi's issued, and the only official German commemorative medal for World War 1.

It was manufactured in huge numbers, by many manufacturer's and because it did not have any forbidden Nazi political symbols, it was never prohibited from wear, and was freely available to be purchased by German W.W.1 veterans.

I have never come across a fake one, as it is easily the most cheapest and often encountered medal available to international medal collector's.

When I lived in Bavaria and attended the local flea-markets you were sure to see a few on the tables.

I have seen it being offered on e-bay USA under the misidentification of " original German Iron Cross metal" possibly a corruption of the German description "Ehrenkreuz" as Iron Cross.

Connaught Stranger

[corisande]

Connaught Stranger

As you know I am struggling with the intricacies of this. Can you clarify for me the procedure to get the Hindenburg Cross. Is it

1. Man or next of kin applied with some evidence, if so what did they have to supply as proof.

2. Certificate arrived though the post?

3. Medal came with cert, or did man go and buy the medal as you say " was freely available to be purchased by German W.W.1 veterans.".

I think you see what I am trying to get at here, how Mr Keogh got his hands on the front line medal.

[James Blonde]

Ok, some info with regards the Hindenburg Series of Honour Crosses:-

On the 13th of July 1934 as one of his last Presidential acts, von Hindenburg created the Cross of Honour for the Great War (Ehrenkreuz des Weltkriegs).

The award is, therefore, technically a Nazi decoration although it is concerned specifically with the Great War.

The Cross was intended in the first instance, for award to German subjects.

However, subsequent amendments to the enabling decree extended

eligibility to Austrians, Sudeten Germans, Memellander's and similar groups*.

Hungarian or Bulgarian and possibly Turkish military personnel who served with

German or associated German States on the Western Front or Eastern Front / Balkans.

Three categories were defined:-

(1) Combat veterans of land, air and sea engagements.

(2) non-Combatant troops, civilian medical personnel, etc.. etc..

(3) Parents widows or other next of kin of those killed in action

or who died of wounds or who died as prisoners of war.

These Crosses had to be applied for, it was not distributed automatically.

Each prospective recipient was required to produce the relevant documents*

verifying his or her claims to the decoration.

My understanding this would have been done through the nearest Police Station

or in the case of those outside of Germany proper the German Embassy.

* Military Service book.

* Work Service book.

* Official Death Notification and Death Certificate.

The same paper proof details would have had to have been provided for those outside of Germany when making their claims.

Many of the award certificates show the award certificate to have the words for example:-

" Der Polizeipräsident in Berlin*,"

(insert relevant Police HQ / District, which seems to indicate the awards passed through the Police Department.

What has to be remembered is that immediate postwar WW1 Germany and the Associated States although defeated, the country was 100% in tact, and huge amounts of German military records from all fronts had survived and were able to be cross-referenced prior to the destruction during W.W.2.

Replacement or extra Crosses could be bought from one of the many military decoration / military tailor shops, but only upon showing receipt of entitlement.

These awards were still being issued throughout the W.W.2 period

Accompanying the Cross was a bestowal certificate of which there are a few varieties.

I hope the above is what you were looking for.

Did men obtain and wear items not officially granted, for sure, a classic case being that of the author Erich Maria Remarque of the WW1 Classic "All Quiet on the Western Front" he returned home wearing a Lieutenants uniform and sporting an Iron Cross to which he had no claim, he was conscripted into the military aged 18, On 12 June 1917, he was transferred to the Western Front, 2nd Company, Reserves, Field Depot of the 2nd Guards Reserve Division at Hem-Lenglet. On 26 June he was posted to the 15th Reserve Infantry Regiment, 2nd Company of Trench Battalion Bethe, and was stationed between Torhout and Houthulst. On 31 July he was wounded by shrapnel in the left leg, right arm and neck, and was repatriated to an army hospital in Germany where he spent the rest of the war.

Connaught Stranger.

[corisande]

Thanks, answers my question.

Basically anyone with the right certificate could buy as many as they wanted, so they must have been fairly easy to get hold of.

[James Blonde]

Thanks, answers my question.

Basically anyone with the right certificate could buy as many as they wanted, so they must have been fairly easy to get hold of.

In my honest opinion, anyone looking to buy "large" amounts, might have been in danger of being reported to the police, in case they were doing something illegal and it might reflect back upon the particular medal supplier / military tailor.

Its possible that any amount over 3 would be constituted as "large" and a 1939 catalog

from Steinhaur & Lück, Ludenscheid prices them at:-

Frontkämfer in Bronce (Bronze) : RM 0.90, in oxydiert: (plated) RM 1.20

Kreigsteilnehmer: RM 0.80

Hinterbliebene: RM 0.80

Connaught Stranger.

[corisande]

I have heard back from the Keogh family. Apparently Keogh's son donated the medals to a museum in Enniscorthy, Wexford. Someone in the family took the photos there, hence poor quality. Seems to be a disagreement with the museum about missing stuff.

Anyway they brought up the question of Monteith (link to my stuff on him) and I checked out his medals. Monteith was the man who went from Ireland in 1915 to take command of the Irish Brigade. He returned with Casement and Sgt Bailey in the submarine. The other two were caught, but he escaped to USA. The book "The Mystery Man of Banna Strand" is about Monteith by his family, and includes a low definition photo of his medals

The Irish ones are the 1916 (submarine arrived in time!) and "Black & Tan" (which Keogh had)

The British ones are the ones in Monteith's Service record - I assume - and interestingly in 16 years in British army, Colours and Reserves, Monteith never got higher than Bombardier.

Its the German ones, or what the family say are German ones, on bottom left of photo that I have no idea of. Can anyone shed light on them. Monteith spent from end Oct 1915 to April 1916 in Germany

[SiegeGunner]

Basically anyone with the right certificate could buy as many as they wanted, so they must have been fairly easy to get hold of.

And, of course, once large numbers had been distributed, medals would have been available (without proof of entitlement) from recipients willing to part with their own example or to buy extras to pass on.

[James Blonde]

The two bottom medals are:-

The German Legion of Honour with Insignia for Combatant, these were unofficial awards bought by Prussian & Associated German States Veterans. It could be had by any German etc veteran who joined the Legion of Honour and met the criteria for award, non-Combatant versions had no insignia on the ribbon.

Connaught Stranger.

[James Blonde]

The other is the Hungarian Commemorative Medal for Combatant in World War 1 issued under the Horthy Regime, this was issued upon meeting the similar criteria as the Hindenburg Cross for Germans, it was also issued to Germans, Bavarian's, Bulgarians etc..etc.. who had served on the Austro-Hungarian Front or with Austro-Hungarians on the Western Front.

The picture from my collection shows a time / light faded ribbon, it would have looked more like the ribbon to the right when first issued.

Note also the bayonets on the medal these are absent from the official non combatant version and the ribbon is different.

Connaught Stranger.

[corisande]

Thanks

I thought you would know.

The minutia of medals certainly defeats me. But it seems one can tease a lot of information out of them

Therefore, am I right in saying that Monteith had the combatant version, even though he certainly never fought while in Germany (i.e. from arrival in Oct 1915 to departure for Ireland in U-boat in April 1916). I have his diary!

And as to "who had served on the Austro-Hungarian Front or with Austro-Hungarians on the Western Front." One wonders how he had the nerve to wear it!