Iron Cross 1914

[N.S.Regt.]

Andy

This is a good thing most lesser copys use a easy cast metal and are not magnetic. So far the signs are good maybe you can post a scan of your medal the guys can give you their oppinion on it. They have been coming up with good repros but I do not know how they are stamped. My first class came with the original box and was marked K O since I liked the award all I bought was K O examples I do not know of anyone using this mark on fakes but anything is possible. All my examples the silver is as black as the ace of spades when i bought them and I do not polish medals. Maybe PB will able to give you some better advice. After midnight way past my bedtime hope I was a help.

Best regards

N.S.Regt

[Guest Chip Minx]

If I recall correctly, KO was the main supplier to the government for the Iron Cross awards. There are plenty of books and information on the web concerning German Iron Crosses. Just do a search and I am sure you will find all you want to know and more. Collecting these medals is a whole subspecialty of WWI memorabilia collecting. As popular as ever, the many variations seem to draw the interest of all WWI collectors. I dare say that you would be hard pressed to find a WWI collection that did not contain at least one Iron Cross.

Chip

[P.B.]

WOW...this thread certainly has moved on! Many thanks to everyone who thought it was interesting enough to contribute to. To Hinrich I would once again say thanks for an amazing document, all the better for the Rohr signiture!

I would echo Chip's observations on the use of the G98 by unofficial assault units (and thank him for the superb pair of shoulder straps in his scan) as well as his advice about obtaining the Larcade book. I also think KO did supply the majority of issue Iron Crosses during the WWI period.

As Chip says, the 1914 Iron Cross is a massive topic in itself, and we've only scratched the surface in a thread like this (...for example, we haven't even mentioned the Grand Cross....!) Some collectors specialize in the 1914 Iron Cross and it's related documents, and it's not hard to see why -you could spend a lifetime -and a lot of cash- collecting and still not have even close to all the possible variations.

As regards replicas....well, they're getting better all the time, unfortunately. When I first started collecting, no-one thought it was worth faking the second class Iron Cross (and no, that's not such a long time ago...) -now, anything is fair game. Some general points:

The cross should be of multi-piece construction, that is the iron centre and silver rim should not be a one-piece striking. (Although some late-war originals are known in this construction, still be suspicious)

As N.S Regt notes, the iron centre should be magnetic, and unless a previous owner has cleaned the silver rim, most have a healthy amount of tarnish.

If you're getting into collecting Iron Crosses, firstly build a good reference library -most books are biased towards the 1939-45 period, but Previtera's "The Iron Time"has excellent coverage of the WWI period. Secondly, buy from a reputable dealer who has a guarentee and a return policy -more importantly, who honours his guarantee!

Lastly, be cynical! If it's too cheap, or too good to be true....then it probably is! Some recipients of the first class had their details engraved on the rear of the medal....whilst many of these engraved crosses on the market are genuine, many are not so be especailly aware of engravings which are obviously value enhancing or desirable (for example, "July 1st 1916", "Fort Douamont" or to a fighter pilot...I've seen what I consider to be genuine engraved crosses along these lines, but....)

Very best regards to you all,

Paul.

[Guest Chip Minx]

I echo Paul...thanks to everyone for this interesting thread. Just one last thing, since several have shown an interest in the 5.Sturm Bn. I have included some period postcards, made especially for the unit. They are cartoonish, but do show an interesting unit "logo" in the colors of the pioneers. The artist signature is, "A.Behrend, im Felde 1917".

Best regards,

Chip

[Guest Chip Minx]

And.....

[P.B.]

Hi Chip

Amazing postcards! I wonder if there were more in the series depicting other weapons or sub-units in Sturm Bn Nr 5? It seems that -like some WWII German units- there were a number of commemorative items associated with this unit, including (as illustrated in Larcade's book) a Meissen plate bearing battle-honours which, I believe, was available post-war.

The plate also featured the unit emblem of a crowned "W"....Larcade illustrates a surviving example, together with a period photo of it in wear, but this is the only one I've ever seen. (Almost comparable in rarity, a few years ago I saw a group consisting of a Flame-thrower Detachment "Death's Head", together with a photo of the original owner wearing it, along with an impressive post-war commemorative service certificate. I saw it in the shop of a London dealer, but it was sold/awaiting collection by this time... )

Can't win 'em all I suppose.....best regards

Paul.

[Guest Chip Minx]

Paul,

Yes, these Rohr Sturm-Btl. cards were part of a set. I can't remember now just why I did not buy the others. As I recall there were two or three more, but I just bought the ones that I thought were most interesting. Once again, shortsightedness on my part.

Speaking of Larcade's book, I was shocked to find that there was another insignia for Rohr's battalion. I had no prior knowledge of it. It must have come to be worn very late in the war. Now, I have to find one of these as well as a Flammenwerfer patch! I only know of one Flammenwerfer patch in the States. I can't imagine what a good one would bring on the open market these days. I know another collector here that has a loose pair of Garde Pionier collar Litzen for the Bluse. Imagine the uniform you would have with those insignia combined!

Paul, it seems you and I have very similar interests. If you would like to correspond outside of the forum, let me know and I will get my hotmail address to you. I don't suppose we should clutter up this British/Commonwealth forum with our talk of WWI German interests.

Regards,

Chip

[P.B.]

Hi Chip

Good idea...send me your e-mail address via the PM function and I'll be in touch.

About 3 or 4 years ago I saw an officer's bluse for sale bearing Garde Pioneer litzen and the Totenkopf armbadge. I didn't see it in the flesh -so can't comment on ot's originality or otherwise- but if it was correct then it must rank as one of the rarest field-grey tunics available. The asking price was £2500.

Best regards

Paul.

[Guest Chip Minx]

Paul,

It's interesting that you mention an officer's tunic Garde Pionier, as I have seen one too. It has been in the collection of the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum at Rastatt for many years. I first saw it in 1980 and I think it is still on display there. It is quite impressive and, of course, has a silver wire Totenkopf insignia. It is a model 1910 Feldrock.

My e-mail is apgar48@hotmail.com

Chip

[PhilB]

It`s threads like this that remind us how much we don`t know. Thanks, gents.

Incidentally, are those wire cutters that the soldiers are carrying on their belts? Most visible on the one on the right. Phil B

[Guest Chip Minx]

Hello M13pgb,

Yes, those are wire cutters. They are one of several patterns issued to German army troops. This particular pattern was the largest size and is most typically seen in photos of assault troops. It was tethered by a string that was tied through a loop at the end of one of the handles. It was held on the belt by a rather awkward sheet steel device that probably did not do a very good job of keeping the cutters in place while a soldier was running or crawling.

Chip

[egbert]

I don't suppose we should clutter up this British/Commonwealth forum with our talk of WWI German interests.

Regards,

Chip

Chip and all other contributors to this thread: I hope you guys DO NOT stop continuing this kind of topic, because many pals out there are indeed interested in German perspective

[marina]

This has been a fascinating thread. Both sides deserve everyone's interest.

Marina

[Guest Chip Minx]

Egbert,

I am sure that we will all continue to monitor this site and contribute information when we can. I really enjoy the forum, as I have no one locally that I can discuss such matters with. Of course, I am in contact with most of the serious WWI collectors in the U.S. and many in Europe, but it is always nice to find new people with similar interests.

For me, the hobby and the history are all about sharing information and I have spent over forty years gathering it! At this point in my life, I am feeling the urge to contribute something of my knowledge, so that which I have learned will not be lost.

Start new threads. I will be watching.

Regards,

Chip

[P.B.]

A couple of fresh items to add to this Iron Cross discussion:

The first is a photograph showing the Iron Cross 2nd Class as it would be worn for parades and award ceremonies, here being worn by Paul Neuber, serving with 9/Komp LIR 84 on March 10th 1915:

[P.B.]

Finally, a rare grouping showing the Iron Cross 2nd Class as it would originally have been awarded. This is a KO manufactured cross in almost mint condition, together with a length of ribbon (some manufacturers supplied the ribbon with a blackened safety pin attached) and the original award envelope -actually a folded sheet of waxed blue paper stamped with the manufacturer's initials. For obvious reasons it's now fairly rare to encounter a set like this:

[Guest Chip Minx]

Paul,

Excellent example. As you say, not many still surviving with the original wrapping. Speaking of Iron Crosses, I recently reread "In Stahlgewittern" and had forgotten about the moment when Jünger and his batman stopped, right in the middle of rush toward the enemy and with bullets flying all around, to find Jünger's EKI, which had fallen off. It just goes to show you how important it was to him.

Best regards,

Chip

[P.B.]

Many soldiers were, of course, awarded both classes of Iron Cross (Hitler, a mere gefreiter, among them...) like this senior NCO photographer by the Richard Wagner studio in Northeim:

[P.B.]

On his private purchase tunic (in the original print it appears to be tailored out of whipcord) the NCO is wearing both classes of Iron Cross, as well as what appears to be the Brunswick War Service Cross 2nd Class. The Iron Cross 2nd Class is being worn in the technically correct fashion with the side bearing the date "1813" as the obverse. Most recipients mounted it with the "1914" to the front.

By the way, Chip, your last posting had me reaching for my copy of "Storm of Steel" again....it's one WWI book I never tire of reading....

[andigger]

PB... What does the K O on the envelope stand for?

[P.B.]

Andigger

The "KO" stamped on the envelope, as well as on the ribbon ring of the cross itself, is the maker's mark. It stands for "Konigliches Munzamt Orden", which, I believe, was the major supplier of Iron Crosses in WWI.

There are dozens of maker's marks on WWI Iron Crosses, and even now some are "unknowns", but if anyone has a marked cross in their collection they don't know the maker of, then post the maker mark here and I'll do my best to help.

All the best

Paul.

[Guest Chip Minx]

Paul,

I am assuming that the style of wearing the 2nd class cross through the button hole was achieved by sewing the loose ends of the ribbon together?

Another interesting bit is that the method of wear with the ribbon (without the medal) passing from the button hole to the edge of the tunic was continued on the M15 Bluse even though there was no button hole. See the attached picture of Obermatrose Kirsch, 4.Matrosen Regiment, Radfahr Komp., mailed in August of 1917.

The Germans must have missed the buttons on the front of their tunics, as they occasionally would sew them on to the outside of the Bluse front so that they could still have a spot to hang their trench lights/torches. Below is a picture of this, displayed on the uniforms of some men from the 3.Komp., Infanterie Regiment 413, dated November of 1916.

Chip

[Guest Chip Minx]

Buttons on the outside of the Bluse.

Chip

[P.B.]

Superb photos, Chip!

Like you, I assume that the ribbon ends were sewn together, although some manufacturers did provide a small blackened safety pin with the cross which could be used to pin the ribbon in place to suspend the medal from it.

Once again you've managed to teach me something new....I've never seen a photograph of soldiers with buttons sewn onto the M1915 Bluse to accomodate torches. That's one of the things I love about this hobby, no matter how amny original pieces I handle or photos I see, I never stop learning....!

All the best

Paul.