Iron Cross 1914

[Neil Burns]

Hi All,

I just have one variety to add the Iron Cross II Class on tri-fold ribbon, as awarded to Austro-Hungarian personnel.

Take care,

Neil

[BottsGreys]

Hey all--thanks for a most interesting thread! As a complete tyro on German awards, I appreciate your sharing items from your collections. Just curious, but what kind of price could one be expected to pay a dealer these days for a standard garden-variety combatants Iron Cross 2nd Class (authenticated)?

Chris

[Dave_59]

So the first class is higher...(i know nothing about German militaRY STUFF).

Dave

[P.B.]

Neil

Thanks for adding the Iron Cross on the Austrian ribbon.....I don't have one of these (yet...!) but have always thought that they were essential to any WWI Iron Cross collection -a very nice example indeed.

Chris

Try Malcolm Bowers at M and T Militaria in Carlisle (www.mandtmilitaria.com) -he always has WWI Iron Crosses in stock and offers a lifetime guarentee of originality with all purchases. Expect to pay around £35 these days for a good second class, up to £150 for a loose First Class depending on whether it's a flat or convex type, up to £250 if it's cased, and around £300+ for a cased one with the outer cartonage.

Good hunting, all the best

Paul.

[the german]

Paul,

I like your photos. May be this one with the document is interesting for you, too. The soldier, to whom the EK II was awarded, is the one in the middle.

Hinrich

[the german]

And here is the document.

[P.B.]

Hi Hinrich

WOW! What can I say.....an original EK II document to a member of Sturm Battailion Nr 5, dated March 1918, possibly the most desirable Iron Cross document I've ever seen!

The artwork alone makes this a really impressive piece, but to have it named to a member of possibly the most famous WWI German assault unit is a real bonus. The photo really is excellent, showing three typical young stormtroopers. Certainly the most impressive Iron Cross document group I've seen for a very long time. You must be very proud to have this in your collection -can you tell us anything else about the soldier it was awarded to, or the circumstances of the award?

Thank you so much for posting this, very best regards

Paul.

[the german]

Hi Paul,

I knew you would like this.

I felt the same when I first held it in my hands. Unfortunately the things are not a part of my collection. In fact I am not such a hard collector in the first line. I am researching the soldiers histories of my area Ostfriesland. I am lucky to have the photo, the EKII document and also the military document (Militärpaß) for an exhibition I am preparing for since last year. I have to give them back, but I am fine with copies and scans. It`s the soldiers fates I am looking for.

I collected hundreds of photos and documents over the last months with help of the local newspapers. There will be no sensational things but I am proud to say that every item that will be shown, came from the people of a small municipality. The people here will be able to look at items, photos and the stories from their (great) granddads and soldiers who once lived in their neighbourhood. That`s what will make the exhibition special (I hope).

Did you notice, that Willy Rohr "himself" signed the document? Johann Gruben was born in 1896 and joined the army in 1915. He got his drill as a pioneer in the Ersatz Bataillon 35, which sent him off to the Sturmbataillon 5.

Verdun (May 1916 to March 1918), the "Große Schlacht in Frankreich" (March-April 1918) and again Verdun (June-September 1918) were the locations, he was fighting with the Sturmbataillon Rohr. So the time, he was awarded the EKII is the Verdun period 1918 (in German= Stellungskämpfe vor Verdun), just before the "Große Schlacht".

On September 29th 1918 he was reported missing on hill 304 near Malancourt. He came back from captivity at the end of July 1919.

Hinrich

[Guest Chip Minx]

A question for Egbert. In the frame you show a "Hindenburgkreuz" in black for non-combatants. How does this relate to the soldier who won the Iron Cross? Just curious.

Chip

[Guest Chip Minx]

Hinrich,

My wife's family was from Ostfriesland, in the Middels-Westerloog area to be exact. Most served with the 78.Infantry Regiment garrisoned at Osnabrück, but others served in the imperial navy and other infantry regiments.

The Iron Cross document is by far the most desirable that I have ever seen. The artwork alone would put in in the first rank of like documents, but the unit affiliation is the best you could hope for.

I do have a few questions regarding the photo. The three soldiers are wearing the model 1915 Feldbluse, but they do not have pioneer straps. The proper shoulder strap for that tunic and that unit would be black with red piping and red number five. These straps in the picture appear to be field gray, which would indicate some other type of unit (most likely infantry). Are you sure that this picture goes with the document? The other indication that these soldiers might not be from the Sturm-Bataillon Rohr Nr.5. is that are not wearing the leather reinforced knees on their trousers or the mountain ankle boots that were regulation issue for the soldiers of the Sturm-Bataillone. My guess is that these men are rather from one of the many unofficial assault units formed on nearly every level from divisional down to company level. Please see the attached picture of what a model 1915 enlisted man's shoulder strap from the Sturm-Bataillon Rohr Nr.5 would look like (from my collection).

[the german]

Hi Chip,

that is interesting! Middels-Westerloog is about 40 kilometres north-east from where I live. It is only a few kilometres from Aurich, the garrison town of III. Bataillon/ I.R. 78.

Are you sure that this picture goes with the document?

First of all, I am absolutely sure, that the soldier in the middle is the owner of the EK II (document) and so the man who served in Sturmbataillon Nr. 5.

On the other hand, you are right with what you say about the uniform and equipment. At first I was wondering about that, too.

Unfortunately, the photo is not dated. I think it could have been taken in some kind of training situation (may be around 1916 with the Ersatz Bataillon 35 and before he finally came to Sturmbataillon Rohr), there are several possibilities. It appears to me, that you are engaged in german uniforms and equipment.

So you might know, that for every single uniform regulation, there was a lot of arbitrariness. The soldiers had to wear, what was available, especially in the Ersatz Bataillone. I have seen lots of photos over the last years were the uniforms and equipment did not fit in the official regulations. Sometimes you can`t put those photos in any drawer. In my opinion it`s possible by all means, that the shoulder straps on the Feldbluse might be 1910`s. Kraus (Die feldgraue Uniformierung ...) for example says, that the pioneers in the Sturmbataillone were able to exchange their second pair of infantry boots into lace -boots (is that correct in english?).

Important for me is, that the family without a doubt says, it`s him. I have the Militärpass, a document and a photo where almost everything (except two or three uniform details) perfectly fits.

Hinrich

[Guest Chip Minx]

Hinrich,

Thanks for the reply. If you read the Militärpaß you should be able to follow this soldier's unit history. It would make sense that this photo was taken before the man entered Sturmbataillon Nr.5.

I will agree with you that clothing regulations were not strictly adhered to during the war and occasionally we see something that doesn't follow the rules, but I would disagree about what you have said about the shoulder straps in this instance. It is extremely rare to see anything other than a model 1915 strap on an issue enlisted man's model 1915 Feldbluse. It just was not done. When you consider the non-regulation combinations that are seen, they are nearly always older patterns being replaced by new. There is no reason that the prior model strap would be put on a new tunic at the factory (well, maybe if they had left over stocks of the old pattern, but it is never seen in period photos). New tunics coming to the field would have the correct pattern shoulder straps. Perhaps the shoulder straps in the picture are black and it is just the lighting playing tricks, but I doubt it.

Check out the Militärpaß and see what units this solidier was in during 1916-18 period. This should give you an answer.

My wife's grandfather must not have been garrisoned in Aurich, as he was in the first company.

Best regards,

Chip

[the german]

Chip,

O.K., O.K., I have to admit that my declaration "1910`s straps on a Feldbluse" is a little bit weak But as I said before, all the other facts regarding this man fit and make sense to me.

My guess is that these men are rather from one of the many unofficial assault units formed on nearly every level from divisional down to company level.

Do you (or some other member) know if these "unofficial" assault units, let`s say on regiment level, were equipped with the Karabiner 98?

My wife's grandfather must not have been garrisoned in Aurich, as he was in the first company.

You are right, the first company was in Osnabrück (after April 1889).

Hinrich

[egbert]

A question for Egbert. In the frame you show a "Hindenburgkreuz" in black for non-combatants. How does this relate to the soldier who won the Iron Cross? Just curious.

Chip

No reference in personal archive. But I suspect it was awarded to my Grandma-(widow) after the war

[DirtyDick]

The Cross of Honour for the Fallen was only awarded in one class and without swords, to the best of my knowledge, irrespective of the casualty's entitlement had he lived - I suppose since casualties were on the whole caused by enemy action, and therefore combat-related or had rendered an 'equivalent' service. (Incidentally, the Iron Cross was awarded with a non-combatants' ribbon for meritorious service to those not at the Front and also to civilians.)

Richard

[Guest Chip Minx]

Hinrich,

Regarding your question concerning the arming of the unofficial Stoßtrupps, I would say that most of them used the Gewehr 98, as it was standard issue for these infantry troops. Most of the photos that I have seen show them carrying rifles. This is not a hard and fast rule, however, as there are pictures of these types of units with carbines as well. Most likely, they would get the carbines if they were available, just because they were better suited to the job.

Please find a copy of Jean-Louis Larcade's 2002 book, "Deutsche Sturmtruppen 1914-1918". Here you will see many photos of such troops and see what I am talking about.

Best wishes,

Chip

[andigger]

PB.. and others....

I picked up an Iron Cross in 2001 when I was on a Western Front Junket. I ahve to admit I know nothing about the medal, I fall into the 'bought it, 'cause it looked cool' category. I got it at the visitor center near Delville Wood, so I believe it is an orignal.

My question is how can I tell anything about it. I have looked at your pictures, but honestly can't tell the difference between the 1st and 2nd class. Also I thought it was interesting that the document said Kaisers und Konigs, while not the k und k of Austira, does this indicate the Kaiser was Emperor of Germany and King of Prussia? And third do the oak leaves on the back symbolize anything, and I assume 1813 marks the date of the battle of Leipzig.

Thanks for and awesome thread and any insights you can offer.

Andy

[N.S.Regt.]

Andy

Although I sold off my Iron Cross docs. years ago i can tell you the frist class should be read as Eiserne Kreuse with either a I, 1 or Erste Klasse. the second class cross will read Eiserne Kreuse with either II, 2 or Zweiter Klasse. You are 100% correct on your statement on the Kaiser and 1813 was the year the Iron Cross was instituted. Do not know about the oakleaves on your doc. just decoration I guess. Hope this helps.

N.S.Regt.

[andigger]

N.S. REgt... Thanks for the insight, but I have the medal itself rather than the docs. Is there a difference in the metals between the 1st and 2nd class?

Andy

[N.S.Regt.]

Andy

The first Class is a pin back version while the second class is supended by a blackand white ribbon. I would assume you have a second class as most first class awards have a solid silver back and 1813 will not appear.

N.S.Regt.

[andigger]

Bingo! Second class it is. One mystery solved.

How do I know if its legit, versus a reproduction? I assume its real, but don't know that for sure.

[N.S.Regt.]

Andy

That may be a little hard there are excellent repros most 2nd class crosses have a mark on the ring either Jewellers initals or a silver content mark 800 is the norm I picked up mine about 20 years ago and are all K O marked I liked this paticular jeweller at the time. You will need a glass to see the mark it is quite small at least for my tired eyes it is.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[andigger]

Ironically enough my roommate is sitting here doing some knitting with a huge magnifying glass. Borrowed it for a quick inspection and sure enough, there it was KO... guess that means I am o.k.

Thanks again!

[N.S.Regt.]

andy

Check also if the center is magnetic.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[andigger]

Yes it is.. is that a good sign?