How did southpaws manage in the war ?

[RodB]

How did left-handed people manage with rifles in the war ? Personally I don't think I could ever shoot left-handed, and would have to specialise in a non-infantry role if I was conscripted in a left-handed world. Did lefties in WWI indeed end in artillery, the navy or other non-rifle roles ? Histories never cover these sorts of questions. I understand that in today's volunteer infantry forces you either shoot right-handed or don't join up, as even standardised semi-automatic actions will eject only to the right.

[centurion]

How did left-handed people manage with rifles in the war ? Personally I don't think I could ever shoot left-handed, and would have to specialise in a non-infantry role if I was conscripted in a left-handed world. Did lefties in WWI indeed end in artillery, the navy or other non-rifle roles ? Histories never cover these sorts of questions. I understand that in today's volunteer infantry forces you either shoot right-handed or don't join up, as even standardised semi-automatic actions will eject only to the right.

Always worth doing a forum search first

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120821&view=findpost&p=1158594

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154241&view=findpost&p=1486308

[RodB]

Those 2 threads indicate that it appears possible to operate a right-handed bolt action rifle left-handed. That makes sense to me, as I can imagine adapting to something providing I'm allowed to do it in my own instinctive way. Hence, I can image operating a left-handed rifle as long as I'm allowed to do it instinctively i.e. right-handed, and as long as I'm allowed to practice an action that is instinctive to me. In contrast, my experience of life is that to force people to do things counter-instinctively is just plain stupid and counter-productive.

What the other posts don't address is whether lefthanders were free to either use their own instinctive adaptation or were allowed to serve in a specialisation where it wasn't relevant.

[simonharley]

How did left-handed people manage with rifles in the war ? Personally I don't think I could ever shoot left-handed, and would have to specialise in a non-infantry role if I was conscripted in a left-handed world. Did lefties in WWI indeed end in artillery, the navy or other non-rifle roles ? Histories never cover these sorts of questions. I understand that in today's volunteer infantry forces you either shoot right-handed or don't join up, as even standardised semi-automatic actions will eject only to the right.

I'm a lefty, and shoot right-handed so to speak. I learned on the cadet version of the SA80, but with that, the SA80 and the LSW you're supposed to cock it with your left hand anyway. We had no choice but to shoot right-handed, and after a bit of teenage grousing my fellow left-handed cadets and I learned how to do it, and do it well. I have a nice BSA-made SMLE, and firing it has never been a problem. At any rate, I found that holding the stock with my left hand meant I kept the gun on target better when I worked the bolt.

My father was forced to go right-handed when a boy, by his mother (a teacher!), and despite ten years in the army he still prefers to shoot left handed where the weapon allows (double shotguns, &c.).

Simon

[Piorun]

Those 2 threads indicate that it appears possible to operate a right-handed bolt action rifle left-handed. That makes sense to me, as I can imagine adapting to something providing I'm allowed to do it in my own instinctive way. Hence, I can image operating a left-handed rifle as long as I'm allowed to do it instinctively i.e. right-handed, and as long as I'm allowed to practice an action that is instinctive to me. In contrast, my experience of life is that to force people to do things counter-instinctively is just plain stupid and counter-productive.

What the other posts don't address is whether lefthanders were free to either use their own instinctive adaptation or were allowed to serve in a specialisation where it wasn't relevant.

Rod; while it's possible to aim and fire an SMLE left-handed, if you wanted to survive very long you would have had to make right-handed shooting instinctive. Without in any way personally denigrating the feelings of frustration that lefties face daily, I know that the Army's repetitive training in everything from rifle drill to square-bashing was to train us so that we reacted instinctively within the military framework - whether it was our natural instinct or not. May I wish you and yours a Good New Year. Antony

[Old Tom]

I am left handed i.e write with my left hand and back in the 1950s was equiped with a No 4 SMLE which I shot fairly well in the conventional way ie right shoulder, bolt operated with right hand. No problem. I'm sure I had no special ability.

Old Tom

[RodB]

The feedback seems to indicate that a typical young left-handed man in his prime is quite capable of adapting to firing a right-handed rifle effectively, given good training and the realisation that his survival may depend on it. Would this be a fair statement ? This would indicate that armies in this case are sensible in enforcing standardisation, and is not in the same class as enforced right-handed writing etc which in my mother's retelling of her school years sounds like mindless bullying.

[Piorun]

The feedback seems to indicate that a typical young left-handed man in his prime is quite capable of adapting to firing a right-handed rifle effectively, given good training and the realisation that his survival may depend on it. Would this be a fair statement ? This would indicate that armies in this case are sensible in enforcing standardisation, and is not in the same class as enforced right-handed writing etc which in my mother's retelling of her school years sounds like mindless bullying.

Accurate summation. Antony

[truthergw]

The feedback seems to indicate that a typical young left-handed man in his prime is quite capable of adapting to firing a right-handed rifle effectively, given good training and the realisation that his survival may depend on it. Would this be a fair statement ? This would indicate that armies in this case are sensible in enforcing standardisation, and is not in the same class as enforced right-handed writing etc which in my mother's retelling of her school years sounds like mindless bullying.

My mother was left handed in everything except writing. She was at school during the time of the Great War. I believe that if one can be taught to write with the weaker of one's hands one can be taught almost anything. I saw men being taught to fire .303s and SLRs. No concessions to handedness and although I am sure it must have required application, I do not recall complaints.

[Pete1052]

It would seem to me that the main reason for this was not the inherent authoritarianism of military organizations but rather the costs associated with having to manufacture left-handed bolts and the receivers that would accept them.

[bill24chev]

When my wife was completing her dissertation for a BSc Psychology I helped her with proof reading etc.,, her dissertation was a comparative study involving various primates including H-sapiens.

I remember that there are different degrees of handiness . This is measured on a scale called the Edinburgh scale. I think it is a scale of 1 to 10 with one being wholly right(or left)handed and ten the reverse five would be a perfectly ambidextrous person.

I have noticed that some left handers can use standard, r-hand equipment, fairly easily which suggests a score on the Edinburgh scale of 3or4 or 6/7. Although the research that developed the scale is, I think, post WW1 there would have been many soldiers predominantly left handers but near the middle of the scale and able to cope with the SMLE and other equipment.

A possible line of research may be to correlate level of marksmanship in pre-war army and handedness.

[centurion]

It would seem to me that the main reason for this was not the inherent authoritarianism of military organizations but rather the costs associated with having to manufacture left-handed bolts and the receivers that would accept them.

Not to mention the logistical problems of having to issue two patterns of the same weapon.

("Serge, serge me rifle's US - bit of Jerry shrapnel hit it"

"Thats all right lad just use Private Godfrey's, I'm sending him back to the dressing station, just be ready for the next counter attack, we need every gun we've got"

"But serge I use a left handed rifle, I can't use a right handed one, why you looking at me like that serge?")

[4thGordons]

I think there is a related issue here also, and that is of eye-dominance (quite important when shooting of course, for sighting).

I am not sure if or what the relationship between eye dominance and hand dominance is, although in the shooting world there are sometimes references to "cross dominant" shooters.

Chris

[truthergw]

A point which might bear mention is drill. Where would one put 2 or more left handed men with left handed rifles when fixing bayonets? What would the line look like with some men with rifles at the wrong side or on the wrong shoulder? I believe the mention of eyes is relevant. I am strongly right handed but my left eye is much better than my right. Too bad. I aimed with my right and practised until I reached the required standard. Amazing what a few evenings peeling spuds and scrubbing dixies while your mates are in the NAAFI can do to motivate achievement.

[Pete1052]

One of the additional factors involved in this may have been the reluctance of military organizations to overload their supply systems with an excessive number of unique spare parts. Having both right- and left-handed rifles would most likely have added around 10 to 20 additional spare parts into the inventory.

Most of us who own cars have probably noticed how over the last 20 years repair parts have come to be sold as major assemblies that cost a lot of money, rather than the less expensive components within them that have actually failed. I suspect this phenemenon has been encouraged by the "Mean Time to Repair" criteria used during the military design engineering process -- a malfunctioning military aircraft, vehicle, or other piece of equipment can be more rapidly restored to operational status by replacing a major assembly rather than by taking the time to fault-isolate the problem down to the piece-part level. When this principle is applied to civilian automotive design it means that when a $5 part fails and your turn signals stop blinking you often have to buy a $500 assembly that includes the speedometer, tachometer, odometer, headlight switches, windshield wiper controls, turn signal controls, etc.

[Pete1052]

I think there is a related issue here also, and that is of eye-dominance ...

I'm right-handed but have a dominant left eye. When I shoot I have to keep my left eye shut in order to be able to see through the rear sight. Years ago I qualified Expert with the M16 so it works OK for me, but I can't practice the military technique of using my left eye to watch the enemy and my right one to aim the weapon. I've heard it said that this condition can have a bad effect on hand-eye coordination.

[geraint]

How do you know if you are dominant left or right eye?

I'm right hand for writing, but feel as strong in both left hand and right as far as physical work with say screwdriver or spanner is concerned. Hard physical stuff such as a saw or axe is right hand - but the more dexterous stuff is both left or right. Maybe southpaws feel the same?

[centurion]

I suspect this phenemenon has been encouraged by the "Mean Time to Repair" criteria used during the military design engineering process -- a malfunctioning military aircraft, vehicle, or other piece of equipment can be more rapidly restored to operational status by replacing a major assembly rather than by taking the time to fault-isolate the problem down to the piece-part level. When this principle is applied to civilian automotive design it means that when a $5 part fails and your turn signals stop blinking you often have to buy a $500 assembly that includes the speedometer, tachometer, odometer, headlight switches, windshield wiper controls, turn signal controls, etc.

One contributer to this was the British Chieftain MBT. Due to some serious design flaws quite minor repairs meant having to take the whole engine out, as a result a significant proportion of the BAOR's armour was out of the LOB at any one time . The thought was being expressed "well why don't we just take out the entire unit and slot in another every time and that way there will be lots more tanks available at any one time." The difference from commercial practice was that the removed unit could be repaired in the workshops and be slotted back into the next tank with a problem. Some of todays civilian issues are just sheer incompetent design - the early models of the Mercedes A had all the electronics on a central board so that if, say the small component that handled emissions control failed you had to pay over £900 to replace the whole ***** board. (I know from experience - I drive a Fiat today).

[Pete1052]

How do you know if you are dominant left or right eye?

Hold an index finger up at arm's length with both eyes open and line it up with an object 10 or more feet away. Then close one eye and see whether that object appears to move left or right. If you're right-eyed the alignment of your finger and the object will be the same whether both eyes are open or whether your left eye is closed. If you're left-eyed the alignment of the finger on the object will stay the same whether both eyes are open or if your right eye is closed.

As an aside, back during the 1960s the U.S. NRA magazine American Rifleman had a very concise and understandable explanation of how to determine this left-eye and right-eye stuff. When I searched the internet to answer Geraint's question in this thread I despaired because I found a lot of overly complicated nonsense that didn't directly answer the question one way or the other. We may be more sophisticated than the men of World Wars I and II but those guys had the habit of getting straight to the point about resolving practical real-world situations without all of the BS that people spout these days. Compared to them I think we're regressing.

[willy]

I am left handed, i shoot my rifles both righthanded models, from my left shoulder, i can also shoot from my right shoulder but i have to think about it more, it's not instinctive to me, i think that no matter how much drill i had, faced with an advancing enemy my first action would be to mount to my left.

[Piorun]

This has become absolutely fascinating. I'm not joking. Happy New Year.

[Rayessex]

Hello

Really not a problem. Everyone is taught the right handed way, and after a few range sessions you would never know a left hander, from a right hander. Its like driving a right handed car, has anyone thought how unnatural it is changing gears with your left hand? Surely its a job for the right hand? But we learn how to do it and do it well.

Ray

[Rayessex]

We may be more sophisticated than the men of World Wars I and II but those guys had the habit of getting straight to the point about resolving practical real-world situations without all of the BS that people spout these days. Compared to them I think we're regressing.

Wow, well said!

Ray

[Deerhunter]

To the original question: I think they just got on with it!

Seriously, I don't think it's that much of an issue. I'm right-handed but have damage to my right eye, so used to fire the SLR left handed. It was not ideal, just a bit clumsy, but something I just had to think about. When the SA80 (L85A1/A2) was introduced (which you cannot fire left-handed)I just had to accept that I would not attain the same standards in marksmanship that I had previously done.

It's of note that the current French assault rifle (the FAMAS (I think)) can be altered to be fired left or right-handed (by the firer, not the armourer) quite easily, and that this adjustment is an accepted practice.

[MikB]

I think there is a related issue here also, and that is of eye-dominance (quite important when shooting of course, for sighting).

Chris

Yes, I'm left-handed but my left eye's not at all good, so I learned from my first shooting session to shoot normally, right-handed - and from early on it felt as instinctive as using a pencil in the left. Too much is made of this.

Regards,

MikB