Let Those Who Come After See To It

[Tom Morgan]

War Graves in Wood Green Cemetery, Wednesbury, under the delegated care of Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council.

Left - Gunner J. Rose 30:01:1944 aged 18

Right - 16441 Pte. J. T. Clay 22:11:1917

Pte. J. Hughes 29:07:16

There are are another 41 War Graves in the cemetery, all of them almost invisible.

[Guest Desmond6]

Now, I know some people subscribe to the 'wildlife sanctuary' theory - but this is ridiculous. There is only one way to describe the conditions here. DISGRACEFUL.

For any local authority to permit this to happen is scarcely believable. When all the councillors put on their regalia and march off to the local war memorial on November 11, they should be handed pictures of this scene and asked about their hypocrisy. We will remember them? Who are they kidding.

Others have responsibilities here too. I assume that the local RBL has complained? If not , why not?

[Terry Denham]

This is an example of a common policy nowadays.

It could be due to a cost cutting measure or a genuine desire to preserve wildlife habitat (I maintain wild patches in the cemetery for which I am responsible to preserve certain wild flower species).

However, war graves are often kept clear when in these 'wild' patches.

I fear that these 'wildlife sancturies' are now becoming more common due to the great savings of cash they produce.

The RBL does not often campaign when it comes to memorials of past soldiers. Their duty, as they see it, is to living ex-servicemen/women and I can't disagree with this.

To be honest, the view portrayed in the photos is not unattractive and will change when the autumn approaches. I have seen many worse examples of neglect.

Comments should be made known to the council who will, no doubt, cite lack of funds as the cause and the unwillingness of its citizens to pay higher Council Tax!

[Tom Morgan]

I'm not really sure what my own view is yet, but Des and Terry, I can see something I agree with in each of your reactions.

Terry - am I right in thinking that local authorities which have war graves in their cemeteries receive some kind of annual payment from CWGC to pay for the upkeep of the surrounding areas?

If so there must be some kind of specification for the work thus paid for. And I guess that the baseline would be to provide a basic level of visibility and access approaching those levels which the graves would have if they had been in war cemeteries.

Tom

[Terry Denham]

Tom

CWGC do/did make payments to cemetery authorities to maintain official CWGC war graves. However, there are agreements where the authority does not take payment and does the work free of charge.

My own council received £3 in payment sporadically to care for our three official war graves but we have not received payment for years (I don't chase for it!).

The degree of care is down to the local inspector who should chivvy the authority if he does not like the level of care. I have never heard of a specific standard 'job spec' but one may exist.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Though in a perfect world these graves would be kept in top order,by the Proxy Authorities responsible;,there is nothing to stop "Joe Public" taking his shears down & clearing the Graves,as he would for that of a relative,to keep it tidy,Local groups such as Scouts & Guides,Cadets,Military Research/Collectors Societies & Groups Etc,can "Adopt" a Grave,Research it & Maintain it,as so many do in Europe,

[John_Hartley]

Tom

Doesnt Sandwell have some sort of reputation as the most ****** or inefficient local authority in the country (allegedly)?

Edited by moderator (TD) to avoid problems!

[Tom Morgan]

Tom

Doesnt Sandwell have some sort of reputation as the most ****** or inefficient local authority in the country (allegedly)?

Edited by moderator (TD) to avoid problems!

John - you're right. Sandwell is the authority which now governs what used to be five smaller towns, all of which were doing all right before.

[Malcolm]

A sad sight. A strimmer and an hour's work would improve things. What's the cost of that?

Aye

Malcolm

[armourersergeant]

The area and over grown way where these stones lay is ironically in complete contrast to where and how these men died, yet in some ways the effect is that they lay amongst the flowers with all growing and living around them. I am minded to say that it is almost a peaceful setting. That is unless you consider that this is not due to thought and planning i bet but to wanton neglect.

Arm.

[paul guthrie]

A bit off topic perhaps, but in East End Then & Now, they picture an east end church, sorry, book is not with me, that has let the cemetery grow for wildlife, no burials there now, it states they have fox & pheasant in urban London.

I am not willing to say what's pictured here is a bad thing, really not sure.

I know that since finding a nice snake in my back yard I am mowing less of it & a side yard is a jungle of the cane early settlers of Central Kentucky found and avoided, inpenetrable, birds just love it, have a pair of cardinals this year & pay the price at 530 AM.

[John_Hartley]

Doesnt Sandwell have some sort of reputation as the most ****** or inefficient local authority in the country (allegedly)?

Edited by moderator (TD) to avoid problems!

Just by way of clarification - the word I had used was not an obscenity or such like. Rather a description of business practices of the council some years ago. As an ex-public sector purchasing manager, I am always disappointed when the standards reasonably expected by the taxpayer are not met. Sandwell was often in the "trade press". I'm sure it's different now.

(Tom - apologies for thread hi-jack.)

[Kate Wills]

Doesnt Sandwell have some sort of reputation?

Was it Sandwell that had a new railway station some years ago, where the Mayor and Corporation (or whatever it is they call themselves nowadays) paraded in all their finery to greet the first train - which failed to stop!

[Sue Light]

It certainly is increasingly common to leave cemeteries to become an 'official' havens for wildlife. There are examples near to me in Sussex both in churchyards, and council maintained cemeteries, where this practice seems to go unchallenged, despite being less than a stone's throw from open downland.

Although as a Great War forum, we may have more interest in seeing that war graves remain in good order, many of the graves in these overgrown rubbish heaps belong to men and women who also served their King/Queen and country, albeit in different ways. I feel that a policy of planned neglect is disrespectful to all the dead, whatever the circumstances of their death, and also to the living relatives who try in vain to visit their graves. If I were Prime Minister I would have all cemeteries clipped to within an inch of their grassy lives on a regular basis - if local councillors, or vicars yearn for birds, bees and butterflies, perhaps they could offer their own gardens for the purpose.

Off hobby horse

Sue

[Guest Simon Bull]

In a previous, not dissimilar, thread I posted the following which seems pertinent to the debate which is going on here. I am not defending councils which simply neglect War Graves. However, properly planned natural areas in cemeteries are becoming important wildlife refugees.

As a keen conservationist I really would speak up for the idea that some cemeteries should be wildlife refuges, provided that this is not just an excuse for allowing the gravestones to deteriorate (in which respect there can surely be a happy medium). With many of our common birds (e.g. Song Thrush, Starling, House Sparrow) in a frighteningly drastic (possibly even terminal) decline something has to be done for them and these places really are excellent for wildlife - what looks a mess to us is a paradise for birds. As I type this I am looking out from my study window over our parish churchyard, and, (even though the churchyard is becoming increasingly brutally tended), it is still the best haven for birds for miles.

Furthermore, I think if I were buried there I would rather be surrounded by singing birds than well-tended but rarely trod upon grass. One of the things I love about the battlefields is hearing the larks sing in a way that our soldier ancestors must also have heard (and many of them drawn comfort from in an hour of great need), but which is almost gone from large tracts of the agribusiness prairies which were once our countryside. One of my Great Grandfathers who served in the War was a postman who (despite living in industrial Birmingham) used his rural round to become a knowledgeable birdwatcher, an interest (but not a talent) which has passed down the generations to several in the family. He died of TB contracted on War Service, but too long after the War to have a CWGC grave. He lies in an unmarked grave in Aston Churchyard. I really hope he is in the overgrown part of the churchyard where the mice scurry and the birds sing - although I never knew him I am sure that he would be happiest there, amongst the wildlife he loved.

To use British cemeteries and churchyards as places where birds and small mammals can continue to thrive in an otherwise hostile world seems to me to be a very worthwhile memorial to those who lie there, most of whom would have known a much more rural environment than we do today and would have been much more attuned to wildlife. I do not think that we should let conservative (with a small c) ideas of commemoration spoil what may be one of the last opportunities for our wildlife – we really are in desperate danger of losing many of the species we take for granted. The silent spring that Rachel Carson predicted in the sixties due to pesticides was averted by anti-DDT legislation then, but is creeping up on us again.

Regards

Simon Bull

[Sue Light]

Simon

I'm sure that your churchyard does have a 'properly planned natural area,' but I don't feel that the line between natural areas and neglect is being drawn in the right place by many. How can commemoration be possible when graves are not visible and impossible to reach? I have just taken this photograph at the extension churchyard of St. James the Less, North Lancing - a local 'wildlife haven'. Due to local lobbying, this has been vastly improved over the last year, but how many people would be eager to be buried here [and it is still open for burials] - and how many would feel happy for it to be their loved ones last resting place? There are some WW2 war graves here somewhere, but even with more time and a scythe it would have been a difficult task to find them. I'm sure the area encourages birds, plants and insects, but it certainly doesn't encourage visitors and remembrance.

Sue

[Terry Denham]

Sue

I remember this one well - right by a main road and not so quiet as your pic suggests!

I think this is a good example of 'neglect' rather than 'planned conservation'.

Well done to the locals who have manged to get some improvement.

[j.r.f]

PALS

I would say that the graves in the grass at the start of this thread ARE well looked after.There is after all only grass growing round them.No trees or shrubs.As for the idea that Joe public should HAVE A GO with the strimmers.I think this is a roure to disaster.The stones would very soon be scarred with the strimmers.They would then fall to pieces.

There is also another aspect to this.These are patches of land that WILL BE FOR EVER ENGLAND and,for me,an English meadow really does take a lot of beating.All you have to do to read these stones is to gently part the grass.Afterwards let the grass back and leave these heros to their slumbers.

Sorry if this offends but it is the way I feel.I am certainly NOT advocating trees growing out of graves.

CHEERS.

JOHN

[Sue Light]

I remember this one well - right by a main road and not so quiet as your pic suggests!

Spot on Terry! The Lancing haven peace and tranquillity is right next to the A27. But very handy for the local 'young people' to use for purposes other than it was intended!

Sue

[spike10764]

Although as a Great War forum, we may have more interest in seeing that war graves remain in good order, many of the graves in these overgrown rubbish heaps belong to men and women who also served their King/Queen and country, albeit in different ways.  I feel that a policy of planned neglect is disrespectful to all the dead, whatever the circumstances of their death, and also to the living relatives who try in vain to visit their graves. If I were Prime Minister I would have all cemeteries clipped to within an inch of their grassy lives on a regular basis - if local councillors, or vicars yearn for birds, bees and butterflies, perhaps they could offer their own gardens for the purpose.

I agree Sue.

I know nature must be preserved, and the theory of settings that would appeal to lovers of nature, but the purpose of a cemetery is surely commemoration.

And commemoration is something that is done by visitors, friends and relatives.

To have to struggle through overgrown wild areas will not encourage(well actually probably discourage )the visitor to the grave site. Sorry, but it looks disrespectful.

Having struggled today through parts of Carlisle Cemetery(Dalston Road) to photograph CWGC stones, it would appear those that lay in these wildflower/wildlife areas are on the whole less likely to show signs of visiting and to present a picture of greater neglect than those laid out in the well kept areas.

As I said in another thread, some in these areas have a path cut to them through the longer grass(about 3/4ft wide), and around the stone(I'm talking about single stones here). This maintains the proper balance I feel.

Terry- do you know if someone (a relative say) has the right to request such a thing- as there was not real uniformity of grave sites. It seemed unusual that two in wildflowe/life areas did have this whilst some graves in others did not.

Next time I visit the Cemetery , I will ask politely in the office(today I was busy with the photos then had to dash off to work.

Off MY high horse

Spike

[Terry Denham]

Spike

The relatives are responsible for the upkeep of a private grave.

However, this has to be done within the regulations of the particular cemetery. If the authorities have deemed it to be a wildlife area, so be it. On the other hand, many authorities would look favourably on anyone wanting to clear the area around a particular grave especially if they volunteered to do the work themselves.

This is an area where there are no definite rules but each situation must be dealt with on its merits. A little polite persuasion can go a long way.

[Terry Denham]

Pictures such as those above can be very misleading.

At this time of year plant growth is rampant but, if you return to the same spot in mid winter, things can look very different.

I quite like the churchyards in Sussex with knee high grass in June-August but I have learned from bitter experience that the best time to look for War Graves (especially private ones) is in November-March when the plant life has died back.

However, that is not to be taken as any kind of justification for poor maintenance by cemetery owners! It takes no real effort to keep certain graves clear but unfortunately this is often down to local volunteers. You will often find the authorities in total ignorance about War Graves.

[Max]

I agree 100% with Spike. Cemeteries are places of rest and rememberance not a wild meadow. If councils want to create "wildlife habitats" let them use derelict brownfield sites that are scattered about. Can you imagine the uproar, especially on this forum, if the relevent authorities designated Tyne Cot as a "natural area".

All grave yards, regardless of whether they contain war graves or not, should be kept clear for the public to visit.

Andy

[Alison Arnold]

There are some WW2 war graves here somewhere, but even with more time and a scythe it would have been a difficult task to find them. I'm sure the area encourages birds, plants and insects, but it certainly doesn't encourage visitors and remembrance.

Sue

Hi Sue,

Did you find them? If memory serves me correctly they are somewhere towards the back righthand side of the extension. Away from the road. They were totally overgrown when I spotted them last year and access was only available along a litterstrewn path!! Plus I had to climb over a pile of rubble.

Who is responsible for maintaining the extension is it the local authority or the church?

I may well take a wander up later this week and have another look. I have relatives in the churchyard which was overgrown but had been mowed on a subsequent visit.

Best wishes

Ali

[Terry Denham]

Ali

You are right.

They are mainly at the back of the cemetery along the hedge seen at the far end in Sue's first photo.