Lance Bombardier, Bombardier, Battery Commander's Assistant

[Ruth Ward]

Ian

Thank you for going to the trouble of posting all that. It explains quite a bit.

<LI>"The special duty of "No 2" is to assist with the director." - not sure I understand this.

The comment about my grandfather's maths - he only had very elementary skills is what I meant - the 4 basic rules. I don't suppose I'll ever get to the bottom of whether or not he was a BCA, but it's been very interesting trying to find out.

The photos & pictures are amazing - & really define the problems involved - thanks for posting those too. I'm very grateful to you, & everyone else who has contributed.

Ruth

[kenf48]

Not giving up yet?

In Casualties of War, Michele Barratt states "in April 1917 Skirth was the man who calculated the trajectories for the guns for the 239 Siege Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery, stationed in France."

On 8th June 1917 with two other ORs he went on a mysterious mission on Messines Ridge, led by Lt Hedges. This is recounted by Michele Barratt as 'the day that changed his life'.

Skirth claims to have been the only survivor, yet once again, CWGC has no casualties for 239 Battery that day. She goes on to discuss his involvement at 'Passchendaele' in November 1917. She states (and it's unclear whether she is quoting from the manuscript) that the dislike by Skirth for Snow was "set against a background in which one eloquent fact speaks loudly: of the 120 men who made up the complement of the siege battery when Skirth joined by the date of the Armistice he and Snow were the only two to have survived."

CWGC lists 25 deaths of men serving with 239th Siege Battery throughout the war. The battery first went overseas in January 1917 and remained with the BEF in France and Flanders for the remainder of the war (LLT). Someone may have the war diary.

On the other hand in the introduction to 'Reluctant Tommy' Duncan Barrett states,

" Throughout, he (Skirth) claims to havebeen a member of '239 Siege Battery' but a postcard from his Italian friend Giulio gives the game away: it is addressed to 'Bombardier Roland Skirth 12033 293 Siege Battery Italian Expeditionary Force'

[Michele Barrett states as part of 48th Divisional Artillery, she does not mention any transfer only that when fit after a period of amnesia(!) from being 'blown clear' at Ypres in an incident in which 'Jock' was killed, he entrained to Italy]

So which one is correct? Is a transfer mentioned in 'The Reluctant Tommy'?

Presumably it only works if Skirth served in both batteries and transferred from 239 to 293 he couldn't have served in just one.

293 Battery had 11 casualties; the first on the 16th January 1917 (at home in Harrogate), two in Italy (Booker as above and Gnr Hillier on 24 October 1918); the remainder were around Ypres.

Although his service record hasn't survived the general biographical details seem correct.

I could only find John Ronald Skirth, born on 11th December 1897 registered in Quarter 1 1898 in the Registration District of Chelmsford.

He married (?) Christian at Battle, Sussex in final quarter 1924.

His death was registered in Hounslow in the 2nd Quarter 1977.

The National Archives lists 3 medal index cards for 'Skirth' (no matches for Ronald Skirth which seems strange):-

John H. Skirth Pte 55671 Manchester Regt (Service Record available)

John B. Skirth Bombardier 120331 Royal Garrison Artillery

William Skirth Gunner 117670 Royal Garrison Artillery (Service Record available)

Accepting 'Giulio' may have got the number wrong, I can't, unfortunately, find the mic on Ancestry for John B Skirth, but will keep looking, though after the holiday now.

The fact I have yet to find an mic for him does not mean there isn't one, perhaps others may have more luck.

This may be 'John R' and is a transcription error (but I'll let you order it for £2!). The other details seem to fit, a Regtl No 120331 suggests mobilisation around October 1916, and John Ronald was eligible for overseas service on attaining 19 in December 1916. I don't know how long it took to train an observer but he could have been serving in France in April 1917.

If you look up the Rolls at TNA, which are not online they may, if you're lucky, indicate which battery Bdr 120331 Skirth served in.

Ken

[ianjonesncl]

On 8th June 1917 with two other ORs he went on a mysterious mission on Messines Ridge, led by Lt Hedges. This is recounted by Michele Barratt as 'the day that changed his life'.

Skirth claims to have been the only survivor, yet once again, CWGC has no casualties for 239 Battery that day. Ken

Ken

Sounds like confirmation he was the unit Walt.

[kenf48]

Ken

Sounds like confirmation he was the unit Walt.

I've no idea waht a 'unit Walt' is but there is no corroborative evidence the mission took place as described in his account (or more correctly, the account recorded in 'Casualties of War'), so I don't understand how it confirms anything.

His job, as recorded in the account and reiterated in my post, was to 'calculate the trajectories'. His description is yet another inconsistency when testing the veracity Skirth's account. We are however being asked to accept it's true an nowhere is it mentione that he was a walt

Neither he nor the other two ORs were apparently told the purpose of the mission, he was simply given a carrier pigeon. Hedges was supposedly killed early on, his comrades later and apparently the pigeon did not survive.

This gave our hero the opportunity to wander round the battlefield and craters on the 8th June without a clue and find a dead german named......

'Hans'

Ken

[kevinrowlinson]

I suspect Walter Mitty.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/tools_and_services/specials/article857838.ece

Merry Christmas.

Kevin

Edit; The John B. Skirth Bombardier 120331 number is consistent with someone who could have joined one of the 29* Sge. Btys. via "A Sge. Depot. Every record is available for gunners between 120330 to 120339....except Gnr. Skirth's.

[ianjonesncl]

I've no idea what a 'unit Walt' is

Ken

Apologies - little bit of modern Army slang. As Kevin pointed out a Walter Mitty (Walts). This is the person in the unit who when things go wrong tells everyone it was because the Officers and NCO's did not listen to him. If it goes right, it was because of something they did. And of course tales of dare doing involved no one else who is still in the unit, or when they were in another unit.

[Seany]

Ken you make some interesting points - I would add a few extra bits -

Skirth claims to have been the only survivor...... of the 120 men who made up the complement of the siege battery when Skirth joined by the date of the Armistice he and Snow were the only two to have survived." certainly not as my grandfather, George Hamilton, and Ruths Grandfather were still very much alive and very much original members of 293rd.

CWGC lists 25 deaths of men serving with 239th Siege Battery throughout the war. The battery first went overseas in January 1917 and remained with the BEF in France and Flanders for the remainder of the war (LLT). Someone may have the war diary. Yes and 293 were sent to Italy December 1917 for the remainder of the war.

On the other hand in the introduction to 'Reluctant Tommy' Duncan Barrett states,

" Throughout, he (Skirth) claims to havebeen a member of '239 Siege Battery' but a postcard from his Italian friend Giulio gives the game away: it is addressed to 'Bombardier Roland Skirth 12033 293 Siege Battery Italian Expeditionary Force'

[Michele Barrett states as part of 48th Divisional Artillery, she does not mention any transfer only that when fit after a period of amnesia(!) from being 'blown clear' at Ypres in an incident in which 'Jock' was killed, he entrained to Italy]

So which one is correct? Is a transfer mentioned in 'The Reluctant Tommy'?

Presumably it only works if Skirth served in both batteries and transferred from 239 to 293 he couldn't have served in just one. I have a photograph of the 293rd taken in 1916 at their camp in Ewshott - Skirth is there as are gunners Hamilton and Bromley. There is no transfer mentioned in the reluctant Tommy indeed he goes to some lengths to state he is back with his previous unit.

The National Archives lists 3 medal index cards for 'Skirth' (no matches for Ronald Skirth which seems strange):- forum member ororkep did some good digging around about this a year or so ago - he found that the MIC for John B is a mis print for John R (Ronald)

This may be 'John R' and is a transcription error (but I'll let you order it for £2!). The other details seem to fit, a Regtl No 120331 suggests mobilisation around October 1916, and John Ronald was eligible for overseas service on attaining 19 in December 1916. I don't know how long it took to train an observer but he could have been serving in France in April 1917. which is when 293 arrived on 1st April.

[Ruth Ward]

Thanks everyone - this is wonderful stuff. (Have just come out of hospital & am still rather 'groggy' so apologies if my reply to the above doesn't make much sense).

I obtained the MIC for 'Skirth' John B/R and it is virtually the same as his statement (p.34): "Officially I was 120331 Corporal Skirth, JR., B.C.A., C of E, 239 Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery"). 2 campaign medals: Victory & British: RGA, Roll 169^B Page 6929 (although the '2' could be 3, 5 or 8 - difficult to make out).

Skirth says (p.25) that towards the end of his training in 1916, he was sent on a 3-week intensive training course resulting in him being raised to the rank of corporal, becoming a 'specialist', entitled to wear a brass 'O' for Observer - with laurel leaves above his 2 stripes - all combined to make him a BCA. It seems he was never a 'gunner'.

Ruth

ps Ken - I've not given up - just temporarily 'out of action'.

[kenf48]

ps Ken - I've not given up - just temporarily 'out of action'.

jolly good -get well soon and back to 'fighting' fit

and thanks guys for the clarification

Ken