Lieut-Commander Fry later in ADRIC

[corisande]

I have never had to trace a naval officer before and am struggling with this one.

There was a murder of 2 Irishmen in Dublin (write up on this link in Feb 1921 and 3 British officers were court-martialed in April 1921

The trial resulted in the acquittal of the 3 men. However questions were asked in Parliament and Hansard reported (full quote on link)

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS (by Private Notice) asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether the prosecution of Captain King and Cadets Hinchcliffe and Welsh, of the Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, for the murder of James Murphy was founded mainly on the evidence of Lieut.-Commander Fry; what position Lieut.-Commander Fry holds in the Irish Administration; whether Lieut.-Commander Fry's evidence was so unreliable as to have the appearance of deliberate perjury; and whether he will be suspended with a view to his prosecution?

Mr. HENRY Lieut.-Commander Fry, who is employed in the office of the Chief of Police, was a witness for the prosecution in this case. I do not think it desirable to express any opinion as to the extent to which the case for the prosecution depended on his evidence or as to the reliability of his evidence. These were matters for the Court to decide. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK Is it usual for a Member of this House to use the privileges of the House to accuse another man of perjury?

Police records for RIC shows 4 possible Frys for the man mention in Hansard

• Fry, Harold Edward J, born 1901, Glamorgan, joined 1920 (birth in Cardiff Dist)
  
• Fry, John Thomas, born 1898, Gloucestershire, joined 1920 (birth in Barton Regis Dist)
  
• Fry, Arthur Geo, born 1881, Somerset, joined 1921
  
• Fry, Arthur Henry C, born 1896, England, joined 1921 (birth in Camberwell)
  

But there I grind to a stop. With an army officer it would be comparatively easy to find out who Lt-Commander Fry actually was. But with a Naval officer, I cannot get his record.

So can anyone help me determine who Lt Commander Fry was?

[IPT]

I found this snippet, but the A.G. Fry on your list joined in 1921 (and is perhaps an unlikely sympathiser)?

"Mr. A.G. Fry, District Inspector of the Royal Irish Constabulary, was awarded £1,600 compensation for injuries caused by being shot at London Bridge, Bath Avenue, Dublin on the 6th June 1920. "

I've been trying to cross-reference against UK, Naval Medal and Award Rolls on Ancestry but there were far too many Frys, and too little detail.

By the way, I notice that Lt Col Guinness was as well informed in this case as he was when asking questions in the house about Crozier.

[David_Underdown]

No regular RN officer (joining from 1880 on) seems to fit the bill http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=browserefine&query=last_name%3dfry&first_date=18800101&last_date=19901231&catid=33&pagenumber=1&querytype=1&mediaarray=*

[corisande]

No regular RN officer (joining from 1880 on) seems to fit the bill

That was my conclusion. But I then got lost in RNR and RNVR and perhaps even RNAS (I guess the last is unlikely)

I could be that the RIC list is not complete

Thanks for the heads up on AG Fry. The District Inspector bit could meant he was platoon commander or above in ADRIC, as they had RIC ranks as well as ADRIC. I will have a root around on him today

[melliget]

Probably not much assistance, given your location, but further clues to this man's identity might be in records of the court martial, if they have survived. This record looks to be an index of court martials held in the Dublin district between Sep 1920 and Mar 1922:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4601798&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CCOURTS%2CMARTIAL%2CDUBLIN&accessmethod=0

Martin

[corisande]

Thanks Martin

Marginally closer to Kew than you, but I only get there each summer (too hot here and need a MOT on car). The main problem with the Courts Martial records is that they are redacted - names removed with acid before being put in the public records. The authorities were still sensitive years later to protecting the anonymity of witnesses - which is why it is ironic/criminal for the man's name to have been given in Parliament under Parliamentary Privilege.

I was really wondering if anyone thought that I might have missed him in The Catalogue for Kew, given that naval men can appear in a number of places.

[corisande]

I have been given a lead now in that this might be him in RNR

1911 Jul 1. Prob Sub-Lt Robert Fry has been confirmed in that rank

1921 Jul 1. RNR. Lieuts. (act. Lieut.-Cdrs.) to be Lieut Cdrs. Robert Fry.

1922 Jan 31. RD awarded

1922 Sept 27. RNR. Lt-Cdr R Fry, R.D to "Warspite" for training

1927 Apr 13. R.N.R. Lt.-Cdr. R. Fry, R.D., placed on Retd. List with rank of Cdr.

I cannot find him in NA. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find Robert Fry RNR's service record?

Also can one infer his year of birth from RNR retirement year?

[mhifle]

Hi,

Maybe this could be a possible in the 1911 Census. Occupation Mariner Coasting Trade

Regards Mark

Person: FRY, Robert Edwin

Address: 39 Hunnyhill Newport I OW

FRY, Georgina Ann, Head, Married, F, 49, 1862, Boarding Housekeeper, Newport I O W

FRY, Robert Edwin, Son, Married, M, 26, 1885, Mariner Coasting Trade, Newport I OW

FRY, Fredrick B, Son, M, 12 1899 School Boy Newport I O W

FRY, Arthur Wesley Grandson, M 0 (6 MONTHS), 1911, Newport I O W

[mhifle]

From 18 Oct 1911

From 25 July 1912

Mark

[corisande]

Robert Edwin Fry, fits the bill in as much as he is a mariner and could be an RNR man.

However what threw me when I dug into him was that he has a "full" name of "Robert Edwin" and I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the Armd Forces always used the "full" name for officers. And for that reason "Robert Edwin Fry" in IOW census, could not be the same man as "Robert Fry RNR"

However I speak from no great knowledge on the etiquette of officers names and stand to be corrected

[mhifle]

This is from the Irish Times and Hansard

Regards Mark

HC Deb 20 April 1921 vol 140 cc1868-9 1868

§ 63. Earl WINTERTON

asked the Chief Secretary what is the position in the Irish Government occupied by Lieut.-Commander Fry; how long he has been employed by the Government in question; and on whose recommendation he was appointed?

§ Mr. HENRY

Lieut.-Commander Fry was engaged on the 10th January, 1921, as a temporary clerk in the office of the Chief of Police, and is still employed in that capacity. He applied for employment in the ordinary way and was accepted after the usual investigations as to character had been made. It is contrary to practice to disclose the names of persons to whom reference is made as to the character of applicants for employment in the public service.

§ Earl WINTERTON

Were any inquiries made as to this officer's eligibility from those who served with him in the Navy; and were on terms of close friendship with him, such as the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy)?

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for Central Hull has never served with this officer, and has no knowledge whatsoever of him, and had nothing whatever to do with his appointment? Why does the right hon. Gentleman not refute these statements?

§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR

In view of the statement so frequently made as to the danger to life in the publication of the names of witnesses and of the knowledge many of us have that comrades of men of the Auxiliary Force have issued threats against those who give evidence against them, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman try to discourage the organised attack on this officer by hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS

Is it not a fact that this officer is believed by the majority of those who know the case in Dublin to have been involved in a deliberate attempt to obtain the judicial murder of three gallant officers?

§ Mr. O'CONNOR

Is it not the universal opinion in Ireland that this man was endeavouring to defeat the attempt of the Government to get off scot-free men charged with a brutal and cowardly murder?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS

Is it not a fact that the court-martial, after having heard the complete breakdown of the prosecution, did not even call upon counsel to make their concluding addresses?

§ Mr. SPEAKER

We shall have another opportunity to continue the debate.

[mhifle]

Could these be him?

Mark

LG 1909

LG 1911

[mhifle]

There are these from the 1901 and 1911 Census with the occupation Clerk

Regards Mark

1901 Census

94, Derby Road, Southampton St Mary, Southampton

FRY, Maria Head Widow F 61 1840, Guildford, Surrey

FRY, Robert, Son Single M, 25, 1876, Mercantile Clerk, Kingston on Thames, Surrey

FRY, Ernest Son Single M 19 1882 Mercantile Clerk, Southampton, Hampshire

FRY, Herbert E, Son Single M 17 1884 Mercantile Clerk Messenger, Southampton, Hampshire

FRY, Sidney H Son Single M 14 1887 Office Boy, Southampton, Hampshire

1911 Census

Address: 87 Earls Road Southampton

FRY, Robert Head Married, M, 35, 1876 Clerk Accounts Railway, Surrey Kingston

FRY, Nellie Maria Wife Married, 8 years, F 33 1878, Southampton

[David_Underdown]

The later RNR records aren't yet online, the ones currently on DocsOnline only go up to 1908, and of course since he apepars to have continued serving until 1927, his records will still be with MOD at the moment. You may be able to get a lead on his war time employment from the naval medal rolls (now on Ancestry).

[corisande]

Mark

Thanks for that extra stuff from Irish Times and Hansard - great find. It confirms that Fry was not ADRIC and was "clerical"

I think "clerical" covers a great deal here Cecil F C Lees, the fingerprint man shot in Dublin as "Clerical" and I would think Fry would be similar. IN other words clerical rather than pounding the streets as an undercover man. And balance of probability is that a Lt Commander would be too senior for a clerk.

With the LG entries it is not the first on as he is "James Robert Fry". I have my doubts about the second as he is Prison Service

I don't know one way one the other on the Robert Fry in Censuses. Not sure if he has gravitas of a RNR officer. The chap in Isl of Wight has more of a naval background that makes one think he could have been in RNR, but he has the extra Christian name, which I have not cracked yet as to whether we can rule him out on those grounds

[corisande]

. You may be able to get a lead on his war time employment from the naval medal rolls (now on Ancestry).

Thanks, I never knew before how to get Naval MIC equivalent. Got into Ancestry and what it tells me (the info they have is not as extensive as MIC) that there was only one " Robert Fry" and that he got the Star and the rest, and was Lt, but nothing more

What I have on Robert Fry (and I still am not absolutely certain that he is our man) is

1911 Jul 1.RNR Prob Sub-Lt Robert Fry has been confirmed in that rank

1911 Oct 21. RNR Sub-Lt R Fry to HMS Vernon & HMS Excellent on T&G course

1912 Jul 26. Acting Lt R Fry to HMS Bristol to complete 12 months training

1921 Jul 1. RNR. Lieuts. (act. Lieut.-Cdrs.) to be Lieut Cdrs. Robert Fry.

1922 Jan 31. RD awarded. The RD was established in 1908, as a long service award for RNR officers. Original requirement was 15 years service, discounting service as a midshipman.

1922 Sept 27. RNR. Lt-Cdr R Fry, R.D to "Warspite"for training

1927 Apr 13. R.N.R. Lt.-Cdr. R. Fry, R.D., placed on Retd. List with rank of Cdr.

[corisande]

I have convinced myself that our man is not Robert Edwin Fry in IoW. He dies in 1911

• 1884 Jul/Sep Born IoW.
  
• 1907 Married Robert Edwin Fry in I o W to Norah Prince or Mary L Quarrier.
  
• 1911 census There is a Robert Edwin Fry , a mariner coastal trade living with mother at 39 Hunnyhill, Newport, I o W
  
• 1911 Apr/Jun died Robert E Fry aged 26 in I o W
  

Pity as having looked at all Robert Fry in 1911 census born between 1870 and 1890, he is the only one with a seafaring background.

Back to the drawing board

[David_Underdown]

Reviewing the possibilities again, the only other who really looks possibly interesting is Oliver Campbell Fry, who hailed from Blackrock Co Dublin http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8033795, but his record only shows him as a lieutenant. I might try and look him up in the Navy List as well.

[corisande]

Thanks

I got the record now, and have put service record and censuses on Oliver Fry here

Looks as if he transferred to RAF in 1918, so could not have progressed to Lt-Commander. I'll keep going on him, just in case.

[David_Underdown]

So he did, msised that somehow on his record, despite ruling a few others out on the same sort of grounds.

[mhifle]

How about Robert Fry Apprentice Yacht Designer and would be aged 16 in 1911

1911 Census

2 Shamrock Villas Adelaide Road, Southampton

ROBERTS, Albert Head Married M 37 1874 Labour Foreman L S W Railway Berks Reading

ROBERTS, Mattie Wife Married, 4 years F 40 1871 Hants Southampton

FRY, Robert, Step - Son Single M 16 1895 Apprentice Yacht Designer Hants Southampton

FRY, Leonard, Step - Son M 12 1899 School Boy Hants Southampton

Regards Mark

[corisande]

I have followed Oliver Fry through to RAF and added his RAF record to his data.

Basically he was appointed Capt on transfer, and eventually put on unemployed list for RAF in 1919

We can be fairly sure ruling him out

[corisande]

Robert Fry Apprentice Yacht Designer

Yes he looks like a possible one. We seem to be into finding a Robert on the Sherlock Holmes grounds of when you have eliminated all the impossibles, whatever is left, no matter improbable, is the answer

I start on him, now.

[mhifle]

Looks like his father was a Coast Guard Boatman but one brother Charles is missing between 1891 and 1901

1891 Census

5, Coast Gd Cottages, Victoria Road, Hound, Netley

FRY, Thomas Head Married M 32 1859 Coast Guard Boatman Budock Cornwall

FRY, Matilda Wife Married F 22 1869 Portsmouth Hampshire

FRY, Charles Son M 2 1889 Titchfield Hampshire

19O1 Census

KENDALL, William Head Married M 61 1840 Tailor Hinton Dorsetshire

KENDALL, Agnes Wife Married F 60 1841 Edge End Dorsetshire

FRY, Mattie Daughter Widow F 32 1869 Sells Toys Southampton

FRY, Robert Grand Son M 6 1895 Southampton

FRY, Leonard Grand Son M 2 1899 Southampton

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Thanks,

It is looking promising in that he has salt in his blood, as as to speak.