Guest dinkidi Posted 16 June , 2004 Share Posted 16 June , 2004 G'day Today is the anniversary of Portugal's first involvement in World War 1. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 16 June , 2004 Share Posted 16 June , 2004 Dinkidi..... Are there any books/web sites out there about Portugal's involvement. Its something I know very little about. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 G'day Andy Have to plead guilty to almost total ignorance on their involvement Andy. I seem to remember Dr Bean making a comment to the effect that it was not really "their war", which seemed a bit strange merely on the grounds of Portugal being a lt closer geographically than "our mob". My Bible/Encyclopedia the Australian War Memorial AWM Website, has only 6 items in its collection. Most of us would probably know more about Bunker Hill [1775], Maori uprising against Britain [1843], Russian occupation of Baltic States [1940] & Watergate [1972] all 'celebrating' anniversaries today. From the TV coverage it might seem a state of war exists in Portugal this very day! ooRoo Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 Our oldest allies, going back to the Treaty of Windsor of 1271. The Portuguese needed a powerful ally to frighten the Spanish; the British needed a ready foothold for their army on the Continent. Indeed, Portugal's empire was dependent upon the Royal Navy until the 20th C. There is a brief on-line article about the P's in WW1, but can't remember its address. Apparently joined under UK pressure to honour above treaty and sent 2 divisions to the WF and Africa. All I know is that Portuguese Victory medals are like gold dust - anyone seen one for sale? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 Although I'm researching the Battle of the Lys, where the Germans broke in through the Portuguese, I have not found any English language history of their involvement in the war. There are several articles around, both in journals and on the net. And there are obviously books in Portuguese. But its a gap in the market. Most books dealing with the April 1918 episode all have opinions about the Portuguese, and unfortunately almost all of them are uncomplimentary. The best is probably in the Official History. Specific references I have are:- De Meneses, Filipe Ribeiro. "'All of us are Looking Forward to Leaving': The Censored Correspondence of the Portuguese Expeditionary Corps in France, 1917-1918" European History Quarterly 2000, Vol 30 Issue 3 pp 333-355. De Meneses, Filipe Ribeiro. "The Abandoned Army: The Portuguese Expeditionary Corps in France, 1917-1918" Portuguese Studies Review, Vol 5 (1996) pp. 59-72. Rodrigues, Hugo. "France at War: Portugal in the Great War". http://www.worldwar1.com/france/portugal.htm Please let me know if you find any more!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 I am sure someone has a picture of their unusual memorial nearby, La Tourette maybe? The headstones near La Bombe are a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Floyd Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 My experience in researching a medal group to an Army Ordnance Corps grenade instructor attached to the Portuguese at Lys is that there is very little easily available in any language on the subject of Portuguese operations in France. I was able to find out more on the Brazilians than the Portuguese (but that's another story). As I recall, the Portuguese were put into the line with insufficient training and were put on a flank which was also the boundary between divisions/corps. That boundary was known to the Germans who made it the point of attack and the Portuguese broke under the weight. All the problems attendant to such allied operations existed - communications (nobody spoke Portuguese), command lines inadequately coordinated, training, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 If you are ever in Portugal then visit the Military Museum in Lisboa. Situated opposite the main railway station, it is an extremely good museum which also covers the Portuguese during WWI. When I went there none of the staff spoke English, which was alright for me as my (now ex) fiancee was Portuguese but it might prove difficult if you can't speak the lingo and need to ask some questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 Our oldest allies, going back to the Treaty of Windsor of 1271. The Portuguese needed a powerful ally to frighten the Spanish; the British needed a ready foothold for their army on the Continent. Indeed, Portugal's empire was dependent upon the Royal Navy until the 20th C. There is a brief on-line article about the P's in WW1, but can't remember its address. Apparently joined under UK pressure to honour above treaty and sent 2 divisions to the WF and Africa. All I know is that Portuguese Victory medals are like gold dust - anyone seen one for sale? Richard Looks like I'm rich then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 Surprisingly enough, that is the first such Victory Medal that I've seen in the flesh, so to speak. Very rarely see them for sale, and wonder whether they suffer from the same malady affecting Japanese examples: i.e. a seeming glut of them emerging on the market and causing questions to be asked. What sort of prices do they fetch? Do you know how many were awarded, and did the Portuguese also issue a campaign medal? Blue-grey is (almost) Horizon Blue; anyway it was a b/w photo so that author may be mistaken! Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Morton Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 Hello All There is a Portugese cemetery just a 100yards further on the D171 from the Indian monument, which stands near the junction of the D947 and the D171 just south of Neuve Chapelle which is NE of Bethune. If you are fortunate enough to arrive when the gardener is there he will let you into a small museum which stands in the top corner. The grounds are not kept as plush as CWG cemeteries but the chap was trying and he was most pleased when I walked in the gate , it would appear from his reaction he did'nt get many visitors. GO ON MAKE HIS DAY, CALL IN. Regards. Eddie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 18 June , 2004 Share Posted 18 June , 2004 Surprisingly enough, that is the first such Victory Medal that I've seen in the flesh, so to speak. Very rarely see them for sale, and wonder whether they suffer from the same malady affecting Japanese examples: i.e. a seeming glut of them emerging on the market and causing questions to be asked. What sort of prices do they fetch? Do you know how many were awarded, and did the Portuguese also issue a campaign medal? Blue-grey is (almost) Horizon Blue; anyway it was a b/w photo so that author may be mistaken! Richard OK - I don't have my Laslo to hand at the moment but that has the actual numbered issued recorded. About 10 years ago Portugeuse Victory medals were as common as the official French & Belgium ones are today at fairs and on dealers lists. However it would seem that the supply has dried up - I certainly have not seen an official Portugeuse Victory medal for sale for nearly 2 years. The last one was on a dealers list in London at £180 - yeah right! The silver metal unoffical type 2 is quite common in and around the South of England - the dealers get their stock from one person - or so I have been told. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 18 June , 2004 Share Posted 18 June , 2004 The ' Arham ' published a booklet (in french) on the involvement of Portugal in the first world war. Some articles (in french) on its involvement can be found at http://www.grande-guerre.org/ Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurent Posted 1 July , 2004 Share Posted 1 July , 2004 The ' Arham ' published a booklet (in french) on the involvement of Portugal in the first world war. Some articles (in french) on its involvement can be found at http://www.grande-guerre.org/ Gilbert Deraedt Hi, i am Laurent webmaster from ARHAM association, this book is still available on our web pages: http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/arham62/page8.html Best regards Laurent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurent Posted 1 July , 2004 Share Posted 1 July , 2004 But this book is out of print (...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres Posted 10 July , 2004 Share Posted 10 July , 2004 Paul, I took photo's of the cemetery last Saturday while I was visiting the Neuve Chapelle area. Wish the gardener had been there that day, I would have loved to see the museum, ahh well maybe next time. Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred van Woerkom Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 Hi All, Can anyone answer the question why Portugal should have TWO Unknown Soldiers? It is interesting to know that von Hindenburg corrected his story of an attack on the Portuguese in the second edition so that any hint at Portuguese inefficiency was erased. Cheers, Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 It is not generally known that the French 'Anciens Combatants' ministry produce small brochures detailing the involvement of all the allied armies in WW!, together with details of how to get more infor, photos ofmemorials, etc. For a small brochure they are a mine of information. They do one on the Portuguese army. You have to write in French. The borchures are free. The details of where to write to, etc are on the WFA website under 'Places to Go' that was put there by the Luxembourg Branch (me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 The Portuguese were equipped with British helmets, rifles and artillery. Haig knew that they were unreliable for line holding due to inexperience, and poor morale - understandably they didn't really want to be there as they did not feel that their homeland was threatened. They were about to be relieved by British troops and pulled out of the line when the hammer blow fell on them on the Lys in 1918. No doubt the German planners had recognised this weakness and fully exploited it. The Portugese defence broke resulting in a major crisis which nearly rolled up the line and threatened the Chanel ports. The Portuguese cemetery near Neuve Chapell is testamont to to the fact however, that although they broke, some Portuguese did attempt to fight, but it was an unequal match as they were attacked by an experienced and battle hardened army. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred van Woerkom Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 Hi Healday, What is the site of your WFA with your article on it? I repeat my question: why is it that Portugal has TWO Unknown Soldiers? Cheers, Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 Portugese units were also involved in the campaign in German East Africa. The Portugese were apparently not very popular with their native subjects and their attempts to contribute to the campaign were negligible at best. Take care, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AmericanDoughboy Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 Actually, a quite interesting fact is that Portugal is Britain's, historically, oldest ally. "Portugal, historically Britain's oldest ally, delared war on Germany and Austria in March 1916. It eventually sent two divisions to the Western Front, armed and equipped by the British. Put into the line at Neuve-Chapelle, in the British sector south of Ypres, they were attacked during the second great German offensive of April 9th, 1918, broke and ran. Large numbers of prisoners were taken. The Portuguese, an unsophisticated and rural people, were unsuited to the strains of industrial warfare and it was unwise of the Portuguese government to have taken sides. It would have been better advised to imitate Spain in standing apart." 1: An Illustrated History of The First World War by John Keegan, page 289 Portuguese Infantry 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred van Woerkom Posted 22 July , 2004 Share Posted 22 July , 2004 Portugal's Two Unknown Warriors I have found the answer to the question I have twice asked: why TWO? The answer I found in my copy of the Rough Guide : "....Off the east side opens the ... Sala do Capítulo (chapter house) .... P's Tomb of the Unknown Warriors, one killed in France during WW I, the other in the country's colonial wars in Africa." The same room has many mementoes, including Hindenburg's apology for doubting the Portuguese abilities in the first edition of his memoirs and promising to drop it in any further editions. It is a beautiful room in a beuatiful abbey which is remarkably English in its sandstone colour. It is in Batalha ( what's in a name) and especially the Capelas Imperfeitas (Unfinished Chapels) are unforgettable. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Filipe Décio Posted 26 July , 2004 Share Posted 26 July , 2004 Rodrigues, Hugo. "France at War: Portugal in the Great War". http://www.worldwar1.com/france/portugal.htm A revised and slightly expanded version of that article will be online soon. Does anyone know what happened to the excellent article on Portugal in WW1 which used to be at the Western Front Association website? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurent Posted 26 July , 2004 Share Posted 26 July , 2004 The exhibition of "Portugal at war" at Givenchy in April 2004 by Arham french association: http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/arham62/page8.html .With guest: President of Portugal Mr Sampaio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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