MBrockway Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 I have re-examined the histories of FR 73, which was defending to the south of Guillemont and IR 76, responsible for the ruins of Guillemont itself on 3 Sep 16. I shall try to scan a couple of maps later today, but I must state once more, firmly, that 1st Bn FR 73, defending 'the' Sunken Road manned the road I have described previously (i.e. the one which does not exist any more) [Mark: this is "Sunken Road #2" on the egbert's map that I've annotated above] in the order, north to south, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Coys. 1st Coy was in support back to the east along the road running away from the southeast corner of Guillemont. This is described as 'The Second Line'. The history of FR 73 states that the front line was sunken in name only. Shelling had virtually levelled the entire area. The other sunken road, [Mark: this is "Sunken Road #1" on the map above] bearing away southwest from Guillemont seems to have been manned as an outpost line with two MGs, one at the northern end by the road leading EW along the southern edge of Guillemont, the other a little further south. The outpost line then bent sharply back southeast to meet 'the' Sunken Road more or less at the boundary between 3rd and 4th Coys. There were two MGs at this point and a fifth half way between the two roads. I hope that this is clear and that the two maps will clear the whole saga up. Jack A couple of in-line comments added to Jack's text above to indisputably connect his topography with egbert's map! The British trench map I posted in #14 shows the outpost line bending back to the SE at the southern end of Sunken Road #1. "The Second Line" mentioned by Jack is also well seen in the orchard area along the S edge of Guillemont leading to the extreme SE tip of the village. That same trench map also makes it very clear that Sunken Road #1 was an outpost line isolated from the main battle line. The main battle line skirted the W edge of the village at The Quarries and The Fortress and then headed S along Sunken Road #2 ... exactly as Jack has said. Being an outpost line probably explains why the Sunken Road #1 position is not shown as prominently on some of the German sketch maps as it is on others. As regards the Q of exactly where Junger was, I defer to Jack and egbert, as I must confess I have yet to read Storm of Steel .... yes, I know: a primary source and an embarassing hole for a specialist on the 20th (Light) Division! Likewise the Q re the 17/Manchesters 29 Aug attack. WRT to that, I'm afraid none of my sources suggest the northward continuation of Sunken Road #1 (i.e. Rue Sarrazin aka Park Lane) was in any way "sunken". Clearly though their "sunken road" must have been N of the Guillemont if they reached that road by turning to the right! I have even less info on the movements of Hitchcock and the 2/Leinsters. However I think the battlefield topography of the 03 Sep 59th Brigade area all seems pretty clear to Jack, egbert and me ... but as to whether it'll be an end to the whole saga ... LOL! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 Mark Thanks for the comment. If it was not that northern continuation, then I'm bu&&ered if I can work out where the Coy. commander was referring to. The full quote in the battalion history is: "Our company moved forward in artillery formation, round the southern end of Trones Wood and then slightly to the north, till we reached the road. Here the company extended on both sides of the road and then moved forward in extended order towards the village, which would have been about 1000 yards away. We moved foward till we arrived at a thick barrier of wire lining the western bank of sunken road, which we found impossible to penetrate. We, therefore, moved along it to the right until we came to the opening where the Montauban-Guillemont Road cuts through it." John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 Perhaps there was a single word error in the above quote. If the writer meant 'moved along to the left' when he said 'moved along to the right', it would all make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 Possibly a confusion, Ken. He's mentioned that the company are on both sides of the road, so some must have gone right to pass through the "gap" on the road, while others must have gone left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMG65 Posted 18 October , 2010 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2010 I walked Jungers 'sunken road' that Jack is meaning, as jack says it isn't there anymore, it is a field of turnips but I think I got the line right and avoided the turnips. If you follow Jungers trench on the maps it goes off at right angles to join a road. There is a line of trees/hedges from the road that seems to be on this line of the trench. Could this be part of the trench, I think it is. I'm certain Hitchcock as in sunken road 1 Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 Sorry about the delay. I have been out all day then involved in long hunt to find some diesel for the car - Ah! La belle France! This first map is from the history of FR 73 and shows the layout. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 This is a sketch map taken from the history of IR 76, which confirms the main threads of the FR 73 map. Note that this and the next map come from Volume V of the hisotry of IR 76 which deals in 140 pages specifically about the battle for Guillemont. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 This sketch map includes British deployments which Nau, the author of the 'Guillemont'(Vol V) of the IR 76 history, lifted from Inglefield's 1921 History of the 20th (Light) Division. He states that the sketch, which relates to the situation at 1.00 pm (GE time), is only approximate. It is pretty well evident from the German descriptions that the defence was creaking at the seams; that a strong push south of the village led to individual positions being surrounded, cut off and eliminated - literally in some cases. Every officer and man of 3rd Coy FR 73, for example, was killed during this action. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 24 October , 2010 Share Posted 24 October , 2010 There are three excellent German maps at the rear of "Guillemont" by Michael Stedman, albeit dated 30th. Jy. 16 they show the sunken road mentioned by Jack to perfection. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 October , 2014 Share Posted 5 October , 2014 (edited) Just came across this useful sketch map from the East Surrey Regiment regimental history showing of the positions west of Guillemont on 16 Aug 1916. The two sunken lanes and the MG strongpoint are well defined. The map illustrates the attack by 9/ESR against the strongpoint. [source: Pearse & Sloman History of The East Surrey Regiment Vol II 1914-1917 - on-line here: http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/maps/es_vol2_pdf_maps/es_vol2_14.pdf] EDIT: correct source citation added following info from Michael (Pal @EastSurrey) Edited 6 October , 2014 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2014 Share Posted 11 October , 2014 This topic covering the area around the Quarries is also likely to be of interest to readers here: Guillemont Quarry.August 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 November , 2014 Share Posted 20 November , 2014 Useful material on the August attacks in this topic: Somme 1916 researching battle for Guillemont 8th to 11th August 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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