Guest chrisocc Posted 5 October , 2004 Share Posted 5 October , 2004 Dave Apologies for the delay in getting back but I have had to sort a few things out. Ok I have grandads medical records and they are in large chunks fairly illegible. There is a formB103 from May 1915 ( thats the last date listed on it) with Border regt stamped on it but his regimental number is crossed out and a new one , 50962, written above. There seems to be a later form B103 ( type face is different and rank shows a s L/Cpl) from demobilisation showing the same number but the regt shown is 3rd Border. There is also a form B178 showing his admission into Ontario Hospital, Orpington on 3/5/17 which is stamped Border Regt. It seems he was wounded on 24th or 25th April ( can't make out the writing). The rest of the documents are pension related at discharge and all refer to Border Regt. So there is no help in solving the manchester mystery, but the form B179a , Medical Report prior to discharge, does mention former regt as Northuberland Fusiliers 1911. I guess this was his regt prior tothe war and he left in 1911 having joined in 1906 ??? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 17 October , 2004 Share Posted 17 October , 2004 Dave, Can I trouble you for a scan of the relevant pages from the 21st Bn History concerning the attack on October 24th, 1917 (at Gheluvelt?) Cheers. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 October , 2004 Share Posted 17 October , 2004 Andy Can't sort this put for you just now - but presume you mean the attack on the 25/26 October (which was at Gheluvelt). On 24/10, they are only recorded as being "at La Clytte and , later in the day at Lock 8. Please confirm it's the attack details you need. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 October , 2004 Share Posted 17 October , 2004 Andy The extract (note - the wording seems odd in a couple of places. It is as the book and not my typing):- “Heavy rain fell during the night of 25/26 October, especially during the forming up, which rendered the ground exceedingly muddy and made movement a matter of great difficulty. At 5.40am zero hour, the barrage opened and 21st Manchester moved forward to get as close to it as possible. The advance continued with accuracy and precision for some time but later “A” company on the left came under exceedingly heavy enfilading machine gun fire from “Lewis House”, and the company was practically decimated. “B” Company on the right came under heavy machine gun fire from “Berry Cotts”. The survivors of those two companies dug themselves in as well as they were able. “B” company on a line slightly in advance of “Tower Trench”, which was then occupied by elements of “D” company, who were detailed for “mopping up”. To add to the confusion which prevailed , some seventy or eight (sic) men of 2nd Gordons and 2nd Borders , passed through the 21st Manchester s having apparently lost direction. They were afterwards rallied in the vicinity of our old front line. There is every reason to believe that officers and men of “A” and “B” companies were able to continue the advance, although the barrage was lost. But nothing is known of their fate and no trace could be found of them, although they were reported to have gone on. It has, however, been established beyond doubt that Capt W P Purvis and some NCOs men of “A” company actually reached the objective where, owing to their inablility to use their rifles on account of mud, they were subsequently captured. “C” company had moved off at zero hour, passing over “Power Trench” , where elements of “D” company were found “mopping up”. The advance was continued until they came under severe machine gun fire from “Lewis House”. This fire was so devastating a character that the force was reduced to four men only, who established a post. Later, they fell back and established another post some fifty yards in front of Power trench, where elements of “A” company were met. Subsequently all available men of 21st Manchesters, 2nd Queens, 1st South Stafford, 2nd Gordons and 2nd Borders were organised under Lieutenant Buckley and CSM Lucy and established in the original line of posts The 21st Manchesters were relieved at 2.15am on the 27th by 20th Manchester and upon relief withdrew to Bois camp near the Brasserie at Dickebusch and in the evening were moved by bus to Ebblinghem.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 17 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2004 Dave, Can I trouble you for a scan of the relevant pages from the 21st Bn History concerning the attack on October 24th, 1917 (at Gheluvelt?) Cheers. Andy. Andy. (2 scans)... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 17 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2004 ...and... (sorry John, looks like our posts have crossed - could have saved your fingers a little!!!! ) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 October , 2004 Share Posted 18 October , 2004 Dave No problem, mate. I rushed to deal with this one as I currently owe Andy very big favours (and I knew you had declared yourself "busy" for a while). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 18 October , 2004 Share Posted 18 October , 2004 Dave & John - thank you both for taking the time. Much appreciated. (More King's Own stuff on the way to you soon, John). However, the dates quoted are a bit of a mystery. The man I am researching was killed on the 24th........along with several dozen others according to Soldiers Died, yet it appears that the actual attack was the following day. Is this probably another instance when SD has effectively got the date of a major action wrong (cf. the mix-up over the 2/S. Lancs at La Bassee in late 1914, where SD gives all the fatalities on the 24th Oct. yet the actual fighting was on the 21st?) Regards. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 October , 2004 Share Posted 18 October , 2004 Andy I'm afraid you are going to have to check this against the war diary ( and the museum doesnt hold copies!!). This wouldnt be the first time I've come across a discrepancy in the 12th or 21st accounts. Don't know if the errors arise in the original 1920s unpublished draft or if it is in the current book. Alternatively, can you get a cross reference from the 2nd Borders,seeingas they were also involved? Sorry, mate, but can't help more. Look forwrd to getting the KO stuff. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 October , 2004 Share Posted 18 October , 2004 Andy Just had a look through Stedman"s "Manchester Pals" and he also gives the date as 26th, so looks like it's SDGW that's wrong. Have you cross-checked SDGW and CWGC? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2004 Alternatively, can you get a cross reference from the 2nd Borders,seeingas they were also involved? 2/Borders history also gives the date as 26th Oct. ( "On the 24th the 2nd Border regiment was up in the frontline again in the area S. of the Menin Road opposite Lewis House; and from here was ordered to attack on the 26th and hold a line in part of the village of Gheluvelt...etc...etc..."). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2004 However, the dates quoted are a bit of a mystery. The man I am researching was killed on the 24th........along with several dozen others according to Soldiers Died, yet it appears that the actual attack was the following day. Is this probably another instance when SD has effectively got the date of a major action wrong (cf. the mix-up over the 2/S. Lancs at La Bassee in late 1914, where SD gives all the fatalities on the 24th Oct. yet the actual fighting was on the 21st?) Andy. Getting the dates of death late isn't that uncommon in SDGW, especially during the times of major actions. I believe the reason is that the casualty reports came in late and may have been dated wrong originally (look at the casualties for the 11/East Lancs for 1st July 1916, compared to those on the 2nd July when they were out of the line - SDGW gets it several hundred wrong for this day - most (all bar about 6) of those listed on the 2nd July actually died on the 1st). However, getting the date of death too early, is less common. This (excluding obvious blaring typscript errors) is something I've never stumbled upon untill now. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 19 October , 2004 Share Posted 19 October , 2004 Dave, John and Andy I was letting this thread run a bit as i was interested in what you'd turn up One of my guys was also a casualty on the 24th Oct, Walter Harrison ( no relation as far as i know) I had assumed he'd been killed in the run up to the battle and hadn't thought of checking for others on the same day ( but I'm learning) I am assuming the others are all buried (remembered) at the same cemetery? (Walter is remembered on the Tyne Cot Memorial) chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 23 October , 2004 Share Posted 23 October , 2004 Dave/John, Thanks for the replies. I have done a bit of digging myself and a contemporary newspaper report for the man I am researching actually gives his date of death as the 26th too, so it seems that there is likely an error (wholesale) both by SD and CWGC. For some reason those two agencies are regarding the 24th as being the effective date of all the casualties for the Gheluvelt action. I bet there are a lot of instances of this sort of mix-up. Best wishes. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 23 October , 2004 Share Posted 23 October , 2004 I've found my other mix-up in dates re the 21st Mancs. SDGW & CWGC record a total of 42 deaths on 29/8/16, including my researchee William Venables. It seemed odd as it appeared to be a high number of casualites for a day when they were going into the line on a relief (and there was no mention in the short history). A check on the war diary indicates that the 29th to the 2nd were quiet days. On the 3rd , there was a grenade xplosion in the bomb store, with casualties. The next morning the front line trench company plead for relief due to the heavy shelling and number of casualties . And in the afternoon they undertake a bombing raid with casualites. There are only about four fatalities recorded by CWGC/SDGW for the 3rd/4th but the War Diary only gives a summary of deaths for the tour of duty, rather than a daily breakdown. Seems a similar thing that the start of the tour is being given as date of death for (virtually) all casualties. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WASMAN Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Can you give me any information on 12th Manchesters on 4-11-1918 , researching Pte J Speakman 49757, going off the number do you know when he would have enlisted, cheers Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 31 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2005 I'm now pulling out of this thread. I'm sure another member (John?) won't mind taking over . Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 31 January , 2005 Share Posted 31 January , 2005 If you need me to do any look-ups, please email me, rather than use the Personal Message facility or posting here. I find that I’m logging on to the Forum much less frequently than previously and this will be the quickest way of you getting in touch with me. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 August , 2006 Share Posted 18 August , 2006 original post deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now