Manchester Regiment

[CROONAERT]

Ive got the (concise) editions of the histories of the 12th and 21st Bns. Manchester Regiment 1914-19,both with rolls of honour.

If anyone wants anything looking up, don't hesitate to ask.

Dave

[John_Hartley]

And if fellow Forumistas can't get hold of Dave, I've got 'em as well.

John

[CROONAERT]

John.

You'll probably be interested to know that the history of the 11th Bn is scheduled for publication on the same format later this year. (I just got a feeling of deja vu - Have I already told you that before?).

Dave

[John_Hartley]

Dave

You are indeed suffering from deja vu ! (it's about a month ago)

I've stuck research into my two 11th Bn guys on the back burner till then. What's irritating about the Manchesters (being my so-called area of knowledge) is the lack of any war diaries in the regimental archive. Cheap skates . I even offered them a photcopy of my 17th but they didnt take me up it (......now I'm starting to wonder - have we had this conversation as well?)

I'm hoping to be off to Preston next week to go through the diaries on East, North & South Lancs. The archivist has said I'm more than welcome; all the info I'll need is there and , as its for a memorial porject, there's no charge. What a difference.

John

[Gunner R.A.]

Hello Dave,

could you please do a look-up for me on the 12th Bn, i am researching Private Arthur Miller who was KIA on the 4th of August 1916.

If possible could you tell me what the battalion was doing at this time and where exactly were they.

Any help or advice would be appreciated,

yours,

Peter.

[John_Hartley]

Already responded to Peter's duplicate post in another section.

John

[stu]

Hi Dave,

Could you please look up for me what the 12th Manchesters were doing between 21st and the 22/3/18.

I'm researching a Samuel Horrocks Taylor,12th Manchester Reg,KIA 22/3/18.

Any help is great.

Many thanks.

Stu.

[John_Hartley]

Stu

I have photos of the relevent pages from the history but am having difficulty uploading them to the site. Please email me (not PM) and I'll attach them to my reply

John

[Guest 3RAR]

Guys

Regarding the Manchester Battalion publications you have-is this an on-going task? I am interested in the history of the 16th Bn and am wondering if this will be similarly produced in the near future. Do you have any information on this??

Regards

Gary.

[John_Hartley]

Stu

I may have cracked it. Page 1 (fingers crossed)

[John_Hartley]

OK. 2nd page

[John_Hartley]

Gary

There's good news and there's bad news.

The good news is that a similar history of the 16th has already been written.

Several Battalions were written up in the 1920s but only the 16, 17, 18 & 19 were published (as one volume). The 12th & 21st have been published by the regimental museum in recent years. The remaining ones (not all) sit on the shelves doing absolutely nothing (you can tell I am more than little peeved at this).

The bad news is that if you want to own your own copy of the 16-19th's history it will cost you about £75. Although you should be able to get one on an inter-library loan.

As you might have guessed I do have a copy and,yes, I'm prepared to do reasonable look-ups.

John

[stu]

Hi John,

Please ignore the email I sent you before I realised that you had managed to load the relevent pages

Many thanks for your help.

Regards.

Stu.

[Guest 3RAR]

John

Thanks for the reply-dont blame you for being slightly "cheesed off". I live in Perth Australia and would dearly love to get over & see the museum-My relatives In Manchester are on my back to visit so who knows-I may do so. My Grandfather (Leonard Dawson-7451) was in the 16th and scored a MID but I am curious to know why. Has your book any info on this?

Regards

Gary.

[John_Hartley]

Gary

No mention of Leonard, I'm afraid. History is very thin on the ground when it comes to mentioning "other ranks", even when they have won a medal.

John

[Guest chrisocc]

Dave

My grandfather got an MM whilst serving with the 12th Manchesters but we don't know what for or where. Can you tell from the regimental history where they were operating between February and Dec 1916?

I am sorry I can't narrow it down any further as all I have is the entry from the London Gazette dated 14/12/16 and I don't know how long after the action that merited the award this appeared.

It's slightly more complicated by the fact he was in the 2nd Border from august 1914 and got a MID dated 22/2/16 ( you refer to this period in the Border history elsewhere)also his medical record from 1917 when he was wounded state 2nd Border so I have no idea why his MM is inscribed 12th Manchester.

Any help would be much appreciated

Chris Nicholls

[CROONAERT]

Chris.

Could you tell me your granfather's name? I might be able to narrow it down a little with this info.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Guest DNH]

Guys,

Speaking with a little, but not masses of, inside information of the Manchester Regimental Histories, Archives and Museum - get off their case.

The Archives are currently being tasked with moving the entire archive store, which includes the Local Authority Archive, into a new building to be finished by Autumn 2004. This is building currently without finished roof or windows, so make your own minds up about the pressure of work. It was only recently decided that the Archives would actually be allowed to close whilst the move was in progress. Think also about the likelihood therefore of, at the moment, spending thousands on photocopies of war diaries that are, let's be honest, available for research 6 days a week at the National Archives. I think the accusation that the archives are 'cheap skates' for not purchasing copies of the war diaries is a little undignified and unworthy.

The Manchester Regiment Archives are kept and funded entirely by a Local Authority and is therefore a tiny proportion of what the already hard pressed staff do there, alongside maintaining the local ratebooks, council committee minutes, photographs etc etc and all the other records that Local Authorities have produced and continue to produce.

The continuing political pressure on Museums and Archives generally speaking in this country is not for specialist expertise (with the exception of the larger, world class collections, but even they are suffering), but to attract new audiences. The theory is that our experts and interested parties, such as the members of this forum, are sufficiently dedicated to travel to Kew, to join this forum, to go to Western Front Association meetings/lectures. What Museums and Archives need to do is to address matters of social exclusion - eg why are members of ethnic minorities under represented in museum/archive audiences, what can we do to reach those who have spent less time in formal education, what about the under 50s etc. With respect our political masters say that members of the forum are not our target audiences, we cannot afford 'expertise'. Museums and Archives should be developing the skills of users so they can be empowered to do the research themselves. If you think that Museums and Archives should be able to spend thousands of pounds on copying and publishing documents that are already in the public domain then you should either (a) gift that money to said Museums and Archives or ( vote for that political party that has made increased spending on Museums, Galleries and Archives its number one public service priority ahead of schools, health, transport, 2012 Olympic Games bids, wars in Iraq etc. Oh there isn't one.

You get what you vote and pay for. Just like French and Haig got a BEF that was too small and under-equipped to do the job it was given by its political masters and our French allies. If you want us to spend more money, give us more. It comes from you.

There is very close to publication a book on the 9th Battalion, Ashton Territorials, from its early days as a Rifle Volunteer Battalion. 12th and 21st have been published as you already know. 11th and 22nd Battalions have typescript histories available to read in the Archive five days a week, most of the time until 7.30pm. Michael Stedman's book on the eight pals battalions (16-23rd) has just been republished in 2nd edition, complete with substantial material from the Regimental Archives. 24th Battalion has Cotton Town Comrades by Bill Mitchinson. 10th Battalion also has a good book by Bill Mitchinson from its days as rifle volunteers. These last three books, it should be clear were not published by the Regiment or Museum. There have also been short biogs of Elstob and Brig Gen Noel Lee. I don't think that is too bad going - people with interest in other regiments should let me know what battalion histories have been published recently elsewhere. There have also been recent books on the 8th Battalion and 2nd Battalion in WW2. All these publishing enterprises need to pay for themselves. The recent record of published titles is not that bad.

And that is before you think about those books published by the Historical Records Committee in the 1920s. Why do you think the 2nd Manchester Brigade book was never published in the 1920s to go alongside the first? Because nobody would pay for it. What money people had at the end of the war to put aside for memorialising the contribution and sacrifices in the war went to erecting the war memorials we see in most towns and villages. A Local War Museum movement was founded but collapsed through lack of public support, as did publishing enterprises like the National Roll of the Great War.

You get what you pay for. If you don't want to pay for it, don't sit there moaning that museums and archives are 'cheap skates'.

Well, that's got that off my chest

Cheers

[CROONAERT]

Guys,

Speaking with a little, but not masses of, inside information of the Manchester Regimental Histories, Archives and Museum - get off their case.

As far as I can see, no-one on this thread is actually on their case ! You can't re-publish what was never published in the first place. There's certainly a lot more been written (and re/published) about the Manchesters, than on my own love, the East Lancashire Regiment, so no-one (especially me) is complaining about that. I've now even got a copy of the 11th Bn's history as mentioned above, so I'm happy with the published side.

I think that the main gripe (and this is something I've experienced first hand) is the complete lack of interest and assistance (and knowledge? )offered in research by the Manc.Regt. archives, etc., when compared to the other archives and museums such as those of the Lancs regiments at Preston, and the Borders at Carlisle, the service of both I have found to be second to none. This is something that has nothing to do with funding, more a case of human nature.

Dave.

(PS. can we now get back to using this thread for it's intended purpose? )

[CROONAERT]

Dave

My grandfather got an MM whilst serving with the 12th Manchesters but we don't know what for or where. Can you tell from the regimental history where they were operating between February and Dec 1916?

I am sorry I can't narrow it down any further as all I have is the entry from the London Gazette dated 14/12/16 and I don't know how long after the action that merited the award this appeared.

It's slightly more complicated by the fact he was in the 2nd Border from august 1914 and got a MID dated 22/2/16 ( you refer to this period in the Border history elsewhere)also his medical record from 1917 when he was wounded state 2nd Border so I have no idea why his MM is inscribed 12th Manchester.

Chris.

Thanks for your email. Your grandfather's name isn't listed in the "Roll of Honour" of MM winners for the 12/Manchesters, so I'd assume that it was the 2/Borders that he won it with. He was probably with the Mancs when he was gazetted this award, so this may be the reason it was inscribed as such.

What are the dates on his 1917 record that show 2/Border?

Dave.

[Guest chrisocc]

Dave

Its complicated this research stuff, isn't it !!

I will dig out the medical papers I have and get the dates off them , (I know they are at home somewhere as I saw them a few months ago but couldnt find them last night)

The gazette entry 14/12/16 is

43443 L/C H Nicholls, Manchester R, Late Border R

His MIC reveals the following units and numbers

2nd Border R, Pte 8601

Manc R. Pte 43443

RDC , Pte 67266

Border r. 50962

Thanks

again

[John_Hartley]

DNH

You are, of course, entitled to your view on this, just as I am. You will have also seen from my post several months ago (and others in similar threads) that I make no criticism of the museum or archive staff. I know the curator reasonably well through our membership of the Lancs & Cheshire WFA and what I have said here will have come as no surprise to him. You will have noticed from my signature that I have researched some 200 men from different regiments commemorated on my local war memorials. The Manchester Regimental Museum is one of only two, that I have dealt with, that does not hold copies of diaries (the other being the Leicesters)

The difficuluty is one of funding AND the need to target available funding to useful projects. Much as I would like to be able to influence that, the fact that the museum and archive is entirely operated by Tameside Council means that only voters resident in Tameside can do that!

The reason I call them "cheap skates" is that I have now twice offered them my copy of the 17th Battalion's War Diary (something that cost me the best part of £200). I have said "would you like to take a photocopy of it and put it in the archives". Now, if they cannot afford to make something like 500 copies on their own machine, I do not know what else to call it other than "cheap skate". However, seeing as you have some "inside info" on the Museum and also suggest that things be gifted to them, please let your contact know that if they wish to take a copy and charge me for it (at cost), I'll be more than happy to pay (assuming they've a good copier contact, it should only cost me a tenner). Can't say fairer than that.

My other gripe here is that they have several Battalion histories written in the 1920's that have not been published and just sit on the library shelves. These are the ones written in similar vein to the 12, 21, 16, 17, 18, 19 ones already published. If they were to be publsihed they would be a valuable source of income that could be directed to other projects, let alone the benefit of having the info in the wider public domain.

So, let's look at he great scheme of things.

Tameside MBC already has a multi-million pound budget. It could supplement it by publishing the histories. It could also consider a bid to the National Lottery Heritage Fund. To obtain a full set of the Regiments' war diaries would cost (let's be generous), £5000. THIS IS ABSOLUTE CHICKEN FEED!!!!!

If it bought them, then what would be the benefit.

Firstly, it would be a local resource for people to visit. It would mean that local people like me (researching local men from the local regiment) would have a 15 drive to research, rather than a trip and overnight stay to visit Kew. Second, it would enable the Museum and Archive to answer queries that come to it by email and post from across the world. I am aware that it is not uncommon for the curator to direct enquirers to THIS site and Forum to see if info is available.

Over the next four years of 90th aniversaries, there is bound to be a growth in interest in WW1, and even more so in another ten. The Museum has been quite innovative this year with it's free evening talks. However, it's audience has tended to be elderly (I felt like quite a spring chicken). Surely it's new target audience is going to be the family history folk. Copies of the war diairies, held locally, are just what they'll need.

(By the way, do I know you by any chance? It's the initials)

John

[CROONAERT]

Chris.

(donning deerstalker and lighting pipe!). I take it he was actually wounded with the 12/Mancs, went in the RDC during his recupriation period, then went back in the Borders when they were crying out for able(ish) bodied men (early/mid 1918?). The fact that his gazette entry states "late Border R." could possibly indicate that he hadn't been with the Mancs very long in Dec.1916. (I'm only thinking out loud here, so it'd be best not to take this as certain)

I think if we concentrate just on his first two units/numbers, we might get somewhere. (The Borders being his first unit, his records could possibly have stayed at their depot, hence the 2/Borders being on his wound documents rather than the 12/Mancs).

I'll have a think about this one and get back to you.

Dave

[harribobs]

gentlemen

i have the 12th and the 21st as well, along with Mr Stedmans book

I also am able to visit central library very easily during mon-friday as i work in town so if i can be of assistance

chris

[Guest chrisocc]

Dave

Thanks for your help , your expertise is much appreciated.

As he was a reservist called up in August 1914 would he have rejoined his original regiment or gone to a regiment that was being mobilised for France ? He joined the army in 1906 and I have been wondering why a young lad ( I think he lied about his age) from Kensington would join a regiment from up north. Up to now I have assumed he joined his original regiment I am beginning to doubt that assumption.

Chris