Overseas Chevrons - When were these issued?

[Jayenn]

I have a photograph of a group of soldiers in the Machine Gun Corps and some of them are wearing overseas chevrons. Being a black and white photo, I can't see the colour but one man has four of the same light shade on his sleeve, so these, I believe, must all be blue and would, therefore, be for the years 1915-1918, included.

I believe (and am hoping!) that if I knew when these chevrons were awarded to a man I could determine the year when the photo was taken - unless, of course, they were awareded when a man completed his own, particular, year of duty (which I suspect). I hope I've made myself clear!

Can anyone, please help me?

[Guest markj]

I have a photograph of a group of soldiers in the Machine Gun Corps and some of them are wearing overseas chevrons. Being a black and white photo, I can't see the colour but one man has four of the same light shade on his sleeve, so these, I believe, must all be blue and would, therefore, be for the years 1915-1918, included.

I believe (and am hoping!) that if I knew when these chevrons were awarded to a man I could determine the year when the photo was taken - unless, of course, they were awareded when a man completed his own, particular, year of duty (which I suspect). I hope I've made myself clear!

Can anyone, please help me?

I had an MGC tunic which had three chevrons, 2 blue and 1 green. The blue ones sewn on together. See photo. I have never discovered what the green one meant.

[Andrew Upton]

...one man has four of the same light shade on his sleeve, so these, I believe, must all be blue and would, therefore, be for the years 1915-1918, included...

Not that easy I'm afraid - could cover 1916-19, 1917-20, etc. That also assumes he accumulated enough Overseas Service in big blocks with no large gaps say for recovering from illness at home, and extend the dates of his army service but not count towards the chevrons.

[headgardener]

O/S service chevrons were instituted in January 1918, so they would probably would have started appearing on tunics in Spring 1918 onwards.  That's probably as close as you can date them on a photo.

Edit; regarding Andrew's point about the dates that they would cover, they were issued to cover the war years (1914, which was a red stripe, and 1915 to 18). So typically 4 o/s chevrons of the same colour would typically indicate service from '15-'18, but I have heard that men serving in Russia up to 1919 could qualify for them, but that 1919 was the last year in which they were issued. I've never seen evidence to back this up, but it would seem odd if the cut-off date was December 1918, especially for men who may already have been serving with units in that particular theatre during this period.

Hopefully someone here will confirm whether men serving in 1919 or 1920 were eligible.

[Andrew Upton]

Hopefully someone here will confirm whether men serving in 1919 or 1920 were eligible.

They go right up to 1922 for those still qualifying for them (in dwindling numbers as men were discharged), then cease.

[headgardener]

I thought 1922 was when they stopped being worn on uniforms. Are you saying that there were still awarded up to 1922? That would mean a maximum (potential) entitlement of 9 stripes......?

I've never heard of that before.

[Rockdoc]

Wouldn't nine stripes be extremely unlikely, given that time-served regulars were among the earlier troops to be demobbed? Not impossible, certainly, but unlikely.

Keith

[battiscombe]

Gratuitously, ... a picture of a rather glum RHA man with 5 chevrons in barracks in Germany early 1919 .. H Battery (most of his colleagues in the photo have 4)

[headgardener]

Keith,

Yes, which is why I said 'potentially'. I've never heard of o/s stripes being issued after 1919, and I've always understood that 5 (as demonstrated in Battiscombe's photo - thanks for posting that, by the way) was the usual max. I've been told that 6 could be awarded, but that was only a suggestion from someone hypothesizing that a stripe must have been awarded for 1919 because British troops were already serving there at the end of 1918 and it would seem a bit arbitrary for the system to end on 31st December 1918 (Edit; I remember my friend saying that he'd seen a photo of a man with 6 stripes, and that this was the basis of his theory).

I understood that they stopped being worn in '22, but I was interpreting Andrew's post to mean that they were still being issued up to 1922, making a total of 9 a (slim) possibility.

Can anyone confirm the rules on this?

[Muerrisch]

AO 4 Jan 1918 promulgated the issue of chevrons. Therefore none worn before then.

None were to be earned after 1 May 1920 [AO 57 0f 1920].

Max. possible therefore:

Aug 1914 = 1 red one

Aug 1915 = 1 blue

and one more blue for each of

1916, 1917, 1918 and 1919

but not

1920,

therefore

max = 6 includes one red.

I have seen one such, in the NAM on a preserved uniform.

I own several one plus fours.

scan available if needs be.

[battiscombe]

as you are here ... and are interested in badging.. I also post this of another NCO of H Bty RHA in 1919 .. I only just noticed he too has 5 chevrons.. and nice set of cloth badges.. [and had clearly thrived on a bully beef since 1914 ]

david

[Muerrisch]

Wow!

Not absolutely sure of his RA title at time of photo but he is probably a

Farrier Battery Quartermaster Sergeant

and do I detect a DCM and MM adorning his manly chest?

Victor of many a struggle in the NAAFI queue?

[headgardener]

The ribbons look like like Coronation (but that would be out of order, it should come at the other end of this particular row - must be something else?), then MM, QSA and probably a 14 star (he is wearing a red chevron).

[Andrew Upton]

I thought 1922 was when they stopped being worn on uniforms. Are you saying that there were still awarded up to 1922? That would mean a maximum (potential) entitlement of 9 stripes......?

I've never heard of that before.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - awarded only to 1920, but still worn until 1922 for those entitled.

[Muerrisch]

and what I take to be ball buttons on his SD front

[squirrel]

RHA then?

[Guest markj]

Does anyone know what a green chevron meant, above two blue ones?

[Rockdoc]

The dye faded?

Keith (with his tongue only slightly in his cheek)

[mattgibbs]

Hmm lovely photo of the 5 chevron fellow. Looks like DCM MM QSA KSA and 14 star? Is he ID'able..? Maybe too many DCM MM combos? But how many with Boer War service? Nice too see that rank displayed and how complicated it looks!

Regards

Matt

[Jayenn]

I apologise to everyone who replied to my question because it must appear that I have rudely ignored all of you. This is not so, as I ticked the box for email notification when anyone replies but don't seem to have received such notification - unless I accidentally deleted the first one, of course. I've been wondering why no one answered!

I can only apologise and haven't, as yet, read any of the replies because I wanted to get this apology off.

Thamks to all,

John

[Jayenn]

Thanks to everyone - I've now read the emails.

My question was, basically, when were the chevrons awarded - at the end of the year (say 31st December) or at some other time during the year?

I would have thought, each year, on the anniversary of the breakout of war would be the most likely and, Grumpy, you seem to suggest August, which would make sense. I wondered, however, whether it might have been awarded when the individual soldier had served a year overseas, which would make the whole thing much more complicated, but, in some ways, more sensible.

If the chevrons were awarded in August or December, irrespective of the actual time spent overseas by the soldier, then, the photo I referred to must have been taken in late 1918 or early 1919, because my father was demobbed in June 1919 and one man, in the photo, has 5 stripes - one obviously darker than the others, which must be the red 1914 stripe. So that's 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, and 1918. The, obviously. sunny weather, in the photo, would seem to make it spring of 1919, unless the chevrons were awardered in August, of course! Hence my question!!!

Thanks again!

John

John

[Muerrisch]

Ah! I see! The awards were mostly backdated because the chevrons were not 'invented' until early 1918.

Eligibility per se. was: one issued for when first landed outside UK [ie immediately], then one for each anniversary provided some conditions of continuity and status were met.

Any photo showing the badges cannot therefore be earlier than 1918, nor should be later than 1922.

Any photo showing 5 badges including the red one for 1914 has to be later than Aug 4th 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

RHA then?

Yes, means he had served in, or was serving with, an RHA unit. A lot of snobbery involved because there was a 'blue list' for RHA 'qualified' officers, who thus formed an elite within the Royal Regt, a kudos that ORs basked in through association and the wearing of ball buttons was a tangible mark of distinction.

[Jayenn]

Getting back to my original question, the consensus of opinion seems to be that the issue of overseas chevrons came into effect as a result of an Army Order, on 4th Jan 1918 but that the actual awarding/issuing of these didn’t take place until after 4th August 1918.

Chevrons were then awarded, but only after August 4th 1918, one for each year from 1914 (red) up until and including 1919 (blue) making a possible total of 6 chevrons and these could be worn on uniforms up until 1922, after which year they had to be removed.

This would mean, as was pointed out, that 4 blue chevrons, on a soldier’s sleeve, could be for 1916, 1917, 1918, and 1919.

In my case, however, with my photograph, this doesn’t matter because my father, who appears in the photo, was demobbed in June 1919 – that is as long as the 1919 chevron wasn’t issued until August!

Thanks to you all for your answers, I think I now understand!

[Jayenn]

Just one more question, does anyone know if it's possible to see the original Army Order? If they've survived, does anyone know where they might be held? This is purely out of interest!