Dorset /Wiltshire Regimental Numbers

[yeti]

I am researching my grandfather Edward John COOMBS . In the photo he is front row on the right. This appears to be the Wiltshire regiment... I have been told by others on the forum that the photo is likely to b e Tidworth barracks in Wiltshire.

However his attestation shows he joined the Dorset regiment on 09/09/1904 - I know that very soon after joining up he also transferred to the RFA (bombardier 35033). I have several documents, pay books, certificates and MIC for him but I cannot work out what he did in his first couple of years and why there is a discrepancy between the attestation and the photograph.

His attestation papers/book shows regimental number Y441 (written in 1904) crossed out in red pen (unknown when) to 35033. This was his RFA number when he transferred.

Can anyone help - is the number Y441 likely to be a Dorset or Wiltshire number - I cannot find it on any of the Dorset or Wiltshire websites and does anyone know why there may have been a transfer so soon after joining from Dorset to Wiltshire. Was this common ?

I know he was a blacksmith prior to joining up so this may have been the reason he transferred from infantry to artillery.

He went to India in October 1907 when in 14th Battery i believe with 7th Meerut ?

He was in India prior to arriving F & F in October 1914 but his pre war duty is causing me some difficulty.

His later service number was 147902 with the RGA. He finished his service in the Straits Settlement in December 1919 as a BQMS.

Thanks

Dave

[sotonmate]

Dave

You must go to the Wardrobe ! Not that one,this one:

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/

and then for the Dorsets:

http://www.keepmilitarymuseum.org/

I think that the Y441 might have been a Dorset Yeomanry number from pre-war.

Sotonmate

[yeti]

I have tried the wardrobe (!) with no joy but was not aware of the Dorset Keep site so I will contact them... Thanks.

I am struggling to establish why he seems to have moved from the Dorset to Wiltshire regiment in a short time prior to joining RFA. He was certainly in the RFA by 1907. I am starting to doubt if it is him in the photograph but my family are certain it is. The photograph of what is thought to be taken at Tidworth is actually a post card - although not written on.

I don't fully understand the process when they joined up or if there is a chance he did not actually start with the Dorset regiment or if he may have in fact started with with Wilshire .... confusing -- if Y441 is a Dorset number then that is a great help.

Thanks for the reply.

Dave

[headgardener]

I doubt that the other number is a pre-war yeomanry number, the paybook very clearly states the regiment to be the Dorsets and he's clearly a regular according to the terms of his enlistment (3yrs+9yrs) while the yeomanry were Territorials. In fact, I doubt that the first figure is a 'Y', I suspect that it's actually a '7' written in a very old-fashioned way (i.e. 7441). This explanation would also have the advantage of making sense relative to the number series used by the Dorsets. It would place him as a pre-war regular from around that period.

Can't help with the Wilts reference. There's very clearly only 2 army numbers listed in his paybook, and they relate to the Dorsets and the RFA. So I'd be very suspicious about the photo being him, although it does look very much like him when compared to the other photo in your other thread.

3 possibilities;

he transferred to the Wilts but this doesn't show on his paybook, which is very difficult to explain (perhaps you could have a very close look at some of his other papers?)

the 2 different pictures are of 2 different, but possibly related, people (brothers, perhaps?).

it's the same person in both pictures and that person is not your man.

One further thought; he signed up for 3 years service with the regulars plus a further 9 years with the Reserve. He joined in September 1904, and you say that he was in the RFA in 1907. I suspect that he signed up for a further period of service at the end of his 3 year engagement rather than leave the army and transfer to the Reserve, hence his transfer to the RFA in (probably) September '07.

[Paul Nixon]

Headgardener is correct, it's a 7 not a Y, and 7441 fits the Dorsetshire Regiment sequence for 1904 but is too high for the Wiltshire Regiment at that time. The number 35033 though, dates to early January 1905 for the Royal Field Artillery.

[andiS]

1904 would have been after 1 Dorsets came back from India, do you know what battalion he was in?

[yeti]

Thanks for all the replies. headgardener - what you have said would fit exactly as the other part of the book shows he went to India in October 1907 so this is likely to be when he transferred from the Dorsets to RFA ?

I now believe the Wiltshire photo is likely to be a red herring as I can find no documentation or records to support this -- the photo has been in the family for many years and always thought to be him !

I have no information about his service prior to 1907 with the Dorsets.... all documents relate to RFA/RGA and are after 1907...

My next step is research into the Dorsets with the regimental number 7441 .. this may yield some info.......

Really helpful so far... Thanks

Dave

[andiS]

My next step is research into the Dorsets with the regimental number 7441 .. this may yield some info.......

The keep museum is excellent, and their archive is extensive. They have some documentation on named individuals, though most is more regimental - it's well worth a visit to talk to their archive people. My grandfather was 5656 and he joined at the very end of the nineteenth century. I've checked and 1 Dorsets came back from India in 1906 so if your man joined in 04 then he'd have had to be either 2nd or 3rd. An interesting, though possibly fanciful notion, is that if he was in 2 Dorsets he might have gone to India with them and transferred into the RA while he was there rather than transferring over first and then going. Unfortunately I can't remember the year that 2nd went out to India.

The person you really need is forum pal SPotter for all things Dorsets - with any luck he'll see this thread soon and be able to help you.

[Paul Nixon]

... as the other part of the book shows he went to India in October 1907 so this is likely to be when he transferred from the Dorsets to RFA ?

Dave

No. As I mentioned, the RFA number is earlier than that and dates to the first or second week of Janiuary 1905.

[andiS]

No. As I mentioned, the RFA number is earlier than that and dates to the first or second week of Janiuary 1905.

Whooops, sorry Paul. While airing my "fanciful notion" I missed the fact you'd said that ( )

[yeti]

Thats great info ... Thanks.

Early January 1905 means he was in the Dorset regiment for only about four months .. hopefully he will appear in their records somewhere...

That really confirms that he was never in the Wiltshire Regiment and that it cannot be him in the photograph.

I will make a visit to Dorchester and The Keep Museum. I now have something to work with...... is there a way to contact SPotter on the forum or do I have to leave it to luck that he reads this thread ?!

Thanks

Dave

[yeti]

Just a thought... if he left the Dorsets after four months to transfer to the RFA he presumably could only have just completed basic training with them?

[andiS]

I will make a visit to Dorchester and The Keep Museum. I now have something to work with...... is there a way to contact SPotter on the forum or do I have to leave it to luck that he reads this thread ?!

Thanks

Dave

I've emailed him to let him know about the thread - I know he's a busy bloke but with any luck he'll pick it up.

andi

[headgardener]

That really confirms that he was never in the Wiltshire Regiment and that it cannot be him in the photograph.

So do you have any theories about the man in the photo, particularly in relation to the other photo you posted on the other thread? (see my comments in post No.4 of this thread)

Regarding the Dorset's; you'll be lucky to find extensive details of someone with such a brief association with a regiment, though you won't know until you check. So I'm wondering about other ways you can move your research on; finding out more about these pics, and where they came from, any writing on them, other associated family photos, etc, may help.

[yeti]

Thanks .... we are away for a few days now but I look forward to any more info. I will do some digging into the Wiltshire photo and update when we get back if I find anything useful from The Keep Museum.... should be an interesting day out whatever the result.

[andiS]

I've had an email from the redoubtable Mr Potter - he says he'll check the thread later but that 7441 is in the right ball park to be a 1904 Dorset number

[SPotter]

Hi Pals,

Sorry for the delay - been at work and then on a quick holiday

The date of 9/9/1904 for Regt No. 7441 fits perfectly into the Dorset scheme, so I am 110% certain that this was his initial enlistment - 7429 was issued on 24/8/1904 and 7457 was issued on 21/9/1904.

You state that he was a blacksmith before he joined up. As a new recruit into a Regular Infantry battalion he would not have been earning a great deal at all; even by 1914 the pay was only one shilling a day. However as a skilled tradesman, i.e. blacksmith, within one of the technical Corps (Army Service or Engineers) or indeed Artillery, his pay would have been substantially higher. I am sure that this would have prompted his transfer to the Artillery.

As for the Wiltshire Regt connection, as a guess, how about he initially joined the 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion, The Wiltshire Regiment, and on deciding he liked the life joined the Regulars, but the Dorsetshire Regiment? It would not have been so unusual to have switched regiments at this point.

I will look on Ancestry whan I have more time and see what I can come up with.

Regards

Steve

[yeti]

Back from holiday now trying to dry everything out....

A very good suggestion from SPotter... Is it possible to tell if the group photograph could be of a reserve battalion ? This makes a lot of sense as he was living in the area at the time.

Does anyone know if there are records of the Wiltshire reserve units personnel remaining? I have looked on the Wardrobe website but there is nothing there to help.

As he joined the regulars at 18 1/2 then this could actually still be him in the photo (obviously younger than 18 1/2).

My next step is to research his brief time in the Dorsets and then his role on transfer to the RFA in January 1905.

Thanks

Dave

[headgardener]

The suggestion regarding service in the Wilts Rgt is interesting and could explain how he appears to have a period of service that doesn't fit with the facts that we know of his time in the army, but the photo doesn't look 1904 vintage. The uniforms and haircuts just don't look right. There was still a very strong 'Victorian' look at that time that none of these men have, with many men wearing very 'slicked down' hair. I'd certainly keep an open mind to the suggestion, but personally I doubt it. Wilts reserves would wear exactly the same uniform as the first and second battalions, so there's no way of identifying the unit other than by the methods that we've already applied.

There may be some further clues to be gained by checking the other cap-badges in the photo. There are at least 1 or 2 others, from what I can see. If we can place units of these different regiments together, let's say in Tidworth, then we can have a more accurate guess at the date of the photo.

[yeti]

Who is best to try and identify other cap badges in the photo ? I have a higher resolution copy if anyone can help. or should I post it again on another thread?

I should have mentioned previously that the photograph is actually printed on a blank post card - does this make a difference to any of the suggestions ?

Thanks

Dave

[headgardener]

Who is best to try and identify other cap badges in the photo ? I have a higher resolution copy if anyone can help. or should I post it again on another thread?

I should have mentioned previously that the photograph is actually printed on a blank post card - does this make a difference to any of the suggestions ?

Come on! Don't be coy! Post them here, of course (and you can e-mail me if you want, you have my address). And the back of the post-card, assuming it isn't completely blank (i.e. it has 'post-card' or something similar printed on the back) may give us a clue as to date. Every little bit helps, as they say.

[yeti]

I did e-mail the higher res copy to you on 6th August .... did you receive it ?? I will try again if not ...

I will post a picture of the back of the post card but there is not a lot on it to work with.. still I never cease to be amazed what some of the forum members come up with !

Dave

[SPotter]

Postcards were the norm at this time for multiple copy photos (compared to the more formal cabinet photographs), so I wouldn't read too much into this, but it may provide some clues if it contains the photographers name or address.

I.think that the only thing that may be presumed from the cap badges is if there is more than one regiment identified, then battalions of those regiments were brigaded together.

Regards

Steve

[yeti]

Ok.. No photographers name .. It is blank blank !

Copy attached in case Sherlock Holmes is reading ....

The hand writing is my late mothers.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to look at the pics.

Dave

[headgardener]

The reason I suggested posting the back of the card is not in order to see if there's a photographer's name, but to see the style of writing and lay-out. I have a collection of several thousand postcards from the early Edwardian era up to just post WW1, and this one is not likely to date from 1904, in my opinion. There was a much more identifiable style of writing on the reverse of these cards at that time. So I'd discount the theory that this photo relates to a period of service prior to joining the Dorsets in '04. I'd suggest that this card most likely dates from just before about 1910, or possibly just after. I may be wrong, but that is my educated guess-timate.

Edit; Like I said, every little bit helps, particularly when there's a bit of uncertainty about dates and chronology.