Pattern '14

[4thGordons]

Possibly slightly off-topic, but how late was the military use of the P14?

I have a photo of my wife's great-grandfather and his buddies during basic training for the U.S. Army in 1943, and they all are holding M1 Garands except one man is very noticeably carrying a P14.

Probably an M1917 (the US version in .30-06) rather than a P'14 -externally virtually identical. These were used in large numbers in training in the US in WWII and also shipped back to the UK for Home-Guard / LDV use. Post WWII a large number of p14s were supplied to Greece during the civil war (I believe they were also used in the Phillipines)

Chris

[shippingsteel]

They are all Remingtons but there appears to be a clear difference betwen the mid 1917 produced P'13 shape and the just slightly later M1917.

Regarding the status of the 4th N.Staffs I think there may be a difference between "Extra Reserve" Battalion and "Special Reserve" Battalion. Clearly - as they deployed to France in Oct of 1917 they were not just a reserve or home Battalion.

As for the 4th Btn, I'm only passing on what I read on wiki etc, they were referred to as both kind of Reserves on there. I think they were probably just a training battalion that supplied a stream of replacements to the front-line battalions. Interesting that you posted that photo earlier this thread, with the training unit displaying their P14 rifles - slightly prophetic as it turned out for TonyE.!!

What you said about the M1917 is a trick that catches a lot of people, they assume that all the M1917's were made in 1917, when they could have been produced right up until 1919, or then again even later into the 1960's for the trench shotguns in Vietnam. (I know you know that - just pointing it out once again)

I'm interested in your 2nd bayonet in the photos (the silver one). I noticed it was dated as made 5 '17, the exact same date as the one I illustrated with the arrows etc. I'm probably playing the "devils advocate" here, but how do you explain the difference in the finish between the two.? Is it chrome or nickel plated or exactly what do you think that coating is made of.? I've always been a bit unsure of what their story is thats all.

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

S>S - I appreciate your points about the minor differences between different bayonets, but I think you are trying too hard to read something into these differences. These bayonets were made on different machines. They were not all set up using the same CNC program like today. Each individual machine was set up with individual jigs made by individual tool makers. The only common pont was the drawing or pattern they started with. It is not surprising that under those circumstances there are slight differences in the angle of the "taper" as you call it. Err on the side of caution by all means, but to assume everything is fake and work from there seems a little OTT.

Going back to the 4th Batt. North Staffs, you are quite correct, this was the "extra" reserve battalion. The regimental organisation I described holds good for most county regiments, but some did have an extra reserve as the 4th Battalion. Presumably this was becasue they had a large contingent of Special Reserve men so needed two battalions.

The Special Reserve were not training battalions. The Special Reserve grew out of the old Victorian militia and consisted of men who joined the regular army, did six months training in the regimental home battalion (either 1st or 2nd Batt.) like any other recruit and then returned to their civilian jobs but continued to draw a reduced army pay. They were expected to do 28 days per annum with their regiment (usually on annual maneouvers) and would be mobilised (to the 3rd or in this case 4th Batt.) in the event of hostilities. Their function was to supply replacement drafts to the two main battalions as needed but they were also used as additional home troops in the meantime. It is interesting that the 4th N.Staffs. received P.14 rifles, but as they were stationed at home it is logical that they had these, freeing SMLEs for active service.

The Service Battalions of the New Armies initially acted as the training units, and to begin with had very few weapons at all. In time they were issued with Lee-Metfords, Lee-Enfields, Arisakas and Ross rifles. As they became active service battalions and moved to the Western Front they were usually, but not always, issued with SMLEs.

Regards

TonyE

The

[shippingsteel]

but to assume everything is fake and work from there seems a little OTT.

Regards

TonyE

You obviously haven't had to buy too many bayonets off ebay lately TonyE.......!!

Each to their own, I was just sharing a little of what I do. Personally, I firmly believe in Caveat Emptor when handing over the hard-earned, and its a habit that has served me well.

Check out the one below, can you tell me if this example coming out of China recently is legit.?? What points would you use to base your decision on.??

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

You mean apart from the grip screws being the wrong way round?

You are right, I do not bid on many bayonets on e-bay as I don't collect bayonets per se, only an example to go with my rifles. However, I would not bid on something like that out of China in any case, it is asking for touble.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

But do you realise where this kind of thing ends up being sold. Through all kinds of secondary dealers from all around the world.

Reproductions are now being mass produced and they are absolutely flooding the collectors market with good quality "rubbish".

For anyone who is considering a purchase in the near future, it could well pay to be prepared for the err, 'unexpected surprise'.!!

From my experience, the guys making these repros don't get concerned with the minor details either, and that suits me just fine.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

I'm interested in your 2nd bayonet in the photos (the silver one). I noticed it was dated as made 5 '17, the exact same date as the one I illustrated with the arrows etc. I'm probably playing the "devils advocate" here, but how do you explain the difference in the finish between the two.? Is it chrome or nickel plated or exactly what do you think that coating is made of.? I've always been a bit unsure of what their story is thats all.

Cheers, S>S

No problem with this one.

I explain the difference in finish simply - mine has had all the finish (whatever it may have been originally) polished off it. It's not a chromed or plated finish, its a missing finish! Whatever dinish was there, at some point it was all polished away by someone with too much time and too much steel wool.

Chris

[TonyE]

.......The bad news is the scabbard is NOT a Winchester and probably not even WW1. Looks to be a post-war P1907 going on the W stamp, which stands for waxed treatment of the leather. (This is found under LOC 26030 dated 1923 covering the new treatment of leather scabbards. Also appears in B&CB p.202) Might want to check the locket and chape for any manufacturers stamps which would identify where it came from.

Cheers, S>S

I had a sudden thought. One of my P.'07 bayonets has an incorrect Remington scabbard, so a quick swap and I now have a Remington P.'13 with a Remington scabbard and a P.'07 with a P.'07 scabbard.

....and you never saw my hands move!

Regards

TonyE

[Story]

My Eddystone, with a 303xxx serial number. Everything's 'E' marked, although the bolt is force-matched. No brass extrusion when fired.

[4thGordons]

Nice example of a WRS rifle and in an Eddystone "fatboy" stock too.

Chris

[VALERY]

I read with a great interest this topic about Enfield P14.

Brtish soldiers armed with P14 during WWI are a little bit scarce.

So, I think the three next pictures could be useful but unfortunately they remain a little bit mysterious : captions are far from accurate:

Among all these Seaforth Highlanders, the corporal on the far right has received a P14, when all his soldiers are armed with SMLE. Could we imagine that he has been deployed to the front with this rifle?

Here, still at the far right, the serjeant has a P14 too. This picture comes from the Chambers' book but unfortunately neither place nor date. According to the ranks, the different titles and the leather equipments, it sounds for me a training course but where and when?

This one is well known but I think it is post war according to the carrier water bottle seeming to be a 1921 modified type

Have you any clues of P14 used overseas, during WWI?

Valery

[4thGordons]

I have yet to see definitively identified pictures of a P14s on the Western Front. However we know that 100,000 rifles were shipped to India direct from the US so they clearly were present "overseas."

Those are interesting pictures and not ones I have seen before. FWIW my take would be:

1) Seaforths - training picture taken at a camp in the UK (based largely on background)

2) Also UK training - and I suspect a bombers' course - most interesting to me here is the use of the grenade vest which I have rarely seen in photos. I think there are also canvas buckets of grenades in front of them. Despite the presence of Brodies I would think this is also a training group in the UK although it is conceivable perhaps that it is in France (can you make out the shoulder title on the original on the corp. second from the left kneeling) Several of them men appear to have bombers badges on their upper right sleeves so perhaps a "graduation" or "instructors" group?

3) Looks to me like a 1920s or 1930s training manual picture. I cannot make out sufficient detail on the equipment to see the modification you mention. His uniform looks just a little pristine. If any P14 rifles were used in anger in the Great War then it was sniper variants. The modification (adding a fine adjustment rear sight) and later a telescope such as shown were known as the MkI* W(F) and the MkI* W(T) W=Winchester because only WInchester produced rifles were used. F= Fine and T= Telescopic. The (T) version, fitted with a Pattern 18 scope which appears to be shown here was not approved until April 1918 IIRC so if these made it to the front it would have been relatively late in the war.

In 1941 the UK approved fitting a low mounted scope (Aldis) and these became the rifle No3MkI*T(A).These had a cheekrest on the butt.But the high mount and lack of rest indicates this is not one of those. Both No3 MkI*(T) and No3 MkI*(T)A were used in Training and Home Guard roles in WWII, it is possible that some went to France in the early days of WWII prior to Dunkirk but I do not know.

Chris

EDIT: just looking again. Does the Corp. on the right of the Seaforths picture have a badge on his lower left sleeve? If so this could possibly be a marksman badge and MIGHT (heavy caveat) explain why he has a P14)

EDIT AGAIN: here is my most recent P14. A rather battered example it has not undergone the WRS modifications and was one of 5 or 6 rifles I saw recently from the same source which I believe were probably in India. This one has replacement handguards but is otherwise original. Much of the finish has worn off and the stock is rather battered but otherwise sound.

[Andrew Upton]

Since no-one seems to have mentioned it, despite the first picture in post 61 being mostly Seaforths, there appear to be at least four soldiers in it to a different Scottish regiment, including the Corporal with the P-14 rifle - note the different badges and lack of a visible stripe to the kilts.

[4thGordons]

Since no-one seems to have mentioned it, despite the first picture in post 61 being mostly Seaforths, there appear to be at least four soldiers in it to a different Scottish regiment, including the Corporal with the P-14 rifle - note the different badges and lack of a visible stripe to the kilts.

Good eye Andrew but is it a different Regiment - or different Battalion? The cap badge looks like it might be the 5th Seaforths "Sans Peur" badge. I am not sure if they also wore a different plaid but I have a feeling they may have.

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

Good eye Andrew but is it a different Regiment - or different Battalion? The cap badge looks like it might be the 5th Seaforths "Sans Peur" badge. I am not sure if they also wore a different plaid but I have a feeling they may have.

Chris

Couldn't really say - I was thinking Gordons maybe with the "invisible" yellow stripe - a close up would help.

[4thGordons]

Couldn't really say - I was thinking Gordons maybe with the "invisible" yellow stripe - a close up would help.

Agreed - that was the first thing that popped into my mind but I think the bage is circular without a break at the top. - close up would help indeed.

Chris

[VALERY]

Bonjour,

Happy to read that these pictures brought all these comments...

For the Seaforth picture, I think that we have some soldiers from the 5th Bn among regulars or territorials from the 4th : some received kilts cut in tartans Mackenzie and other in Sutherland (5th Terr Bn). In the same way, two cap badges are worn : the deer head and the circular one with a cat inside and the 'sans peur" motto (5th Terr Bn). I noticed that the two jocks of the last row have blue Glengarries (economy issue?).

Chris, you're right, the corp has a crosses rifles insignia on his left sleeve, I thought it could be an answer to the P14 presence. Unfortunately, it's the best that I can do for the picture, it'll be difficult for a close up.

Have you seen or heard about P14 dug out from a Western front battlefield?

Cheers

Valery

[4thGordons]

Bonjour Valery,

No - I have not read of excavated P14s, I would be interested in hearing of any though. The standard firearms reference books seem to indicate that only the sniper models (if even those) saw action.

I only have a couple of pictures showing P14s but I believe they are also in training.

EG:

Chris

[Garron]

Ahhh relics My area, I've seen quite a few weird and wonderful ones, CLLE, G88 and even a M1903 Springfield (Sadly none for sale )I've seen what were said to be M1917's for sale but it didn't say where they were found.

Actually this raises a good point. If one was found would there be anyway to tell a P14 apart from a M1917? Considering its going to be badly corroded minus a stock and even damaged (bent ect).

Gaz

[4thGordons]

Ahhh relics My area, I've seen quite a few weird and wonderful ones, CLLE, G88 and even a M1903 Springfield (Sadly none for sale )I've seen what were said to be M1917's for sale but it didn't say where they were found.

Actually this raises a good point. If one was found would there be anyway to tell a P14 apart from a M1917? Considering its going to be badly corroded minus a stock and even damaged (bent ect).

Gaz

Obviously it would depend, it might be difficult but - there might well be remnants of the volley sight peep on the rear right which would a distinguishing factor. Similarly you might be able measure the magazine case which is slightly longer and slightly narrower on the M1917

Odd things that might survive - the bolt stop on the p14 had a thumbnail cut out whilst the M1917 does not. The magazine follower if visible is of a different design too. Unlikely to survive but the extractor would distinguish them also.

Chris

[coppertales]

The bolt face is different too. The P14 has a larger bolt face due to the rimmed 303 cartridge.....With respect to both Remington and Eddystone P14s sent to India, I have one of each. I bought them with parts missing on the cheap. The barrels were painted that green paint that the Indians use on their rifles. However, both rifles still have the original blued finish and the bores are like new. All of the serial numbers match except the stock on the Remington. Both are excellent shooters....chris3

[VALERY]

Bonsoir,

Always a pleasure to read old books for the one hundred time... This picture comes the british soldier in the 20th century (Service Dress) series from Mike Chappell.

Now, we are sure that P14 were used outside training camps by units serving at the home front.

The 2/1 was formed on September 1914, and remained in UK until in July 1916, converted into a Cyclist unit. It took over the horses from 2/1st West Kent Yeomanry in November 1916, becoming a mounted unit again. Became Cyclists again in September 1917, and moved to Ireland in early 1918.

Cheers

Valery