Pattern '14

[TonyE]

I picked up my new Pattern '14 rifle yesterday at the HBSA Historic Arms Fair at Bisley, so I thought a few pictures might be in order.

It is a Winchester rifle, made in December 1916, and seems to one of the few that escaped the 1939 Weedon rebuild. It has however "been through the system" as a couple of small parts are marked to Eddystone.

The bore is reasonably bright and tight and I look forward to trying it out on the range in a couple of weeks time.

I am of course looking for a P.'13 bayonet now, see my post in the "Wants" section.

Chris - Do you know where I can get an original front receiver screw to replace the target sling swivel?

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Hi TonyE, great to hear from you - ( I've been getting bored around here lately). And that rifle sure does look a treat, great detailed pictures.

And wouldn't you believe it, I just happen to have something special here right for you.!! Every good rifle has to have a great matching bayonet.!! (going cheap this month only)

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

Oh, if only....

I am sure you can find another one with a different date, so let me know how much you want for my matching bayonet and we can sort things out!

Cheers

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Nice try TonyE - but I'm more interested in the provenance of your new rifle. Can you work anything out from those markings about where its been hiding all these years.? It looks to be in fantastic condition, especially with the timberwork - some of those stamps look like they could have been done yesterday. I've always wondered about those Winchester rifles and where they ended up. When I found my bayonet in such clean condition I was amazed - and now we have your rifle made the same month, also in extremely fine condition. It does make you wonder.....

As for my bayonet, at least you know what your looking for now.!!

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Hi Tony

Yes I can get you screw no bother. I am not certain if it they are marked to manufacturers or not but I'll check. Should be able to get one to you pronto.

Looks very nice. Has the stock been lacquered or is that just a well rubbed linseed oil?

Thanks for posting the pics... put my battered examples to shame.

I assume it is a Mk1* with the enlarged bolt lugs? The "star" on the receiver is far more fancy than the usual "asterisk" mark, is the bolt handle also star marked?

Chris

[TonyE]

Thanks Chris for that.

Yes, it is a Mark I* and the bolt handle is so marked. I am going to investigate the stock finish, as it does appear to have a coat of thin lacquer on it. However, it has been very well done if so, as all the stamps in the wood are clear. It obviously has not been sanded and if you look at the close-up picture of the front volley sight the fit of the metal to the wood looks like it has not been disturbed for years.

As to where it has been all this time, I am fairly sure that this was one of the rifles sold to target shooters in the period before WW2. It had been regulated by Fulton (the famous Bisley gunsmiths) as it had a plate so stamped screwed to where the rear sight spring normally is. When the dealer bought it , it had Parker Hale target sights and the original military rear sight, spring and volley sights were with it separately.

This would explain how it had escaped the Weedon refurb in 1939 and also why it is in good condition. Pattern '14 rifles were first allowed in N.R.A. Service Rifle competitions in 1935 and they could be purchased from the N.R.A. for £3.0.0.When I started target shooting around 1960, these P.'14 rifles were the mainstay of club shooting at the shorter ranges up to 600 yards. In fact my very first rifle in 1962 was a very similar Winchester P.'14 with P.H. sights which was a 17th Birthday present that cost £7.10.0.

Unfortunately thousands of them were rebarrelled to 7.62mm with chopped woodwork when we changed calibres in the 1970s. My own club still has a couple of converted P.'14s for use by new members.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

In fact my very first rifle in 1962 was a very similar Winchester P.'14 with P.H. sights which was a 17th Birthday present that cost £7.10.0.

TonyE

Trip down memory lane for you Tony?

This is a Remington (still in .303) refinished in the 80s sometime by Navy Arms I think..., with a PH5B rear sight.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Is it safe to say that the bulk of the P14 production would have gone straight from the US manufacturers and into the British stores.?

I understand that some were used for training purposes and home defence, and that some were later distributed to allied countries like Russia, and of course much later brought out for refurbishment and to see service in WW2. But what percentage of those made would have actually seen some use around the time of the GW.? Did most of them spend decades greased up in storage, and does that account for the better than average condition they are found in when compared with other milsurp rifles from that era.?

Also was there a particular preference for the Winchester version for usage in the target shooting role.? Just wondering, cause this would mean that their matching bayonets would then have been left in storage without much purpose for years before finally being sold out onto the surplus market, and then later ending up ....wherever. Don't mind me - I'm still preoccupied with pondering the possibilities.!!

Cheers, S>S

[peregrinvs]

Apologies for thread hijacking, but I wonder if the kindly TonyE could consult his Pattern 1914 serial number / date list and tell me the approximate date of production for my Winchester: serial number W241462.

It's a bit of a bitsa, as it has an Eddystone stock and a non-matching bolt. It is however almost complete except for a missing dial sight arm.

Thanks,

Mark

[Pete1052]

Nice rifle, Tony, congratulations. On Saturday I reluctantly sold the flagship of my collection, a Colt Special Model of 1861 .58-caliber rifle-musket in factory new condition. It's marked 1863 and unfired except for the proof. Along with it I sold its companion, a Colt New Model Army .44-caliber revolver somewhere between the "very good" and "excellent" condition categories. Both had U.S. Army Ordnance inspectors' cartouches. I got paid fairly good prices, given that the economy right now has made these sorts of things much harder to sell than in ordinary times. The investment value of all but the finest quality antique arms suffers during times like this because few people can afford to pay thousands of dollars for an antique gun. Oh well, when you need the money you need the money.

[4thGordons]

Pete, Comiserations, indeed such decisions are difficult. I trust the sale was not too difficult. Certainly sound like fine examples.

My collection has some breadth but little real quality...which would mean a considerable effort to realise the small amount of money invested in it ... rendering it (I hope) lower on the ladder of "assets" to be liquidated. As you say however... they are only things, and when you need the money...

So just to keep on topic:

An Eddystone MkI* in a "fatboy" stock (note no grasping grooves)

A Winchester MkI similar to Tony's but rather more battered

An Eddystone M1917 in 30.06 (note longer grasping grooves on M1917 stock)

Chris

[TonyE]

Apologies for thread hijacking, but I wonder if the kindly TonyE could consult his Pattern 1914 serial number / date list and tell me the approximate date of production for my Winchester: serial number W241462.

It's a bit of a bitsa, as it has an Eddystone stock and a non-matching bolt. It is however almost complete except for a missing dial sight arm.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark - I am intrigued by the serial number of your Winchester P.14, because it is higher than the supposed total made by Winchester! The generally accepted total for the rifles made by Winchester is about 235,500 with the last few rifles accepted in the first week of July 1917. Stocktaking prior to the handover of the production facilities to the US government for the Model 1917 then took place on July 7th -8th. Skennerton gives a total of 235,448 and my own research for my dissertation (done by adding the weekly Ministry of Munitions returns)came to a total of 235,508.

Is it possible to post a picture of the serial number on the receiver please? I wonder if it has been re-numbered by Weedon?

S>S - Yes, the great majority of the rifles would have gone straight to store. Some were certainly used for training, although it is quite hard to find contemporary pictures of troops with Pattern 14 rifles. In total we received about 1.1 million rifles

The Winchester model was found to be the most accurate and this was the one fitted with the fine adjustment sight in November 1917. It was used in the sniper training schools where it was preferred to the 'scoped SMLE. Late in 1917 the Winchesters fitted with this sight were issued in France as a sniper's rifle on a scale of 2 or 3 per battalion. Even though there were some sixty odd divisions by then this only accounts for a couple of thousand rifles.

The 'scope mounted Mark I*(T) with the Pattern 1918 scope did not make it to the front in any quantity before the war ended. It remained the standard sniping rifle of the army though until the introduction of the No.4T in WW2 and between the wars was issued on a scale of 8 per Regular battalion.

A large but unknown number of Pattern 14 rifles were given to Latvia and Estonia as military aid immediately after WWI which reduced the number in store considerably. In the mid 1930s when a new infantry rifle was under consideration it was reported to the Research Department Conference on Ballistics in July 1936 that there were about 700,000 still in store and that they would need refurbishment. This is the first mention I have found of what became the Weedon refurb. program, and records show that the total number so treated was 677,324.

I believe that all the rifles sold to the NRA for target shooters about this time were Winchesters. I do not know how many were involved but I am trying to find out from the NRA archives.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Thanks TonyE, thats interesting. What sort of information was recorded on the butt disks of the Winchesters.? Yours seems to be clear of any markings but the one Chris posted looks to have something stamped on it. The disks were never put on the Remingtons.?

Cheers, S>S

PS. I will definitely keep my eyes open for a suitable bayonet for your rifle....it's the least I can do.!

I'll let you know if anything shows up. A matching month Remington will probably be your best bet.

[peregrinvs]

Mark - I am intrigued by the serial number of your Winchester P.14, because it is higher than the supposed total made by Winchester!

Well, well. I shall have another look tonight and try and sort out a picture. I apologise profusely in advance if I've noted down the number incorrectly.

(Which is probably the simplest explanation...)

Cheers,

Mark

[4thGordons]

Tony,

I believe some (quite a number of)? Pattern 14s were delivered to India (directly) were they not? If I am correct do you know which manufacturer sent them?

I agree regarding photos. I have found it very hard to find a Great War vintage photo showing P14s, in fact the damaged one below is the only one I have found, showing both P14 and SMLE in what I assume is a training unit in the UK.

Chris

PS S>S the stock disk on my winchester reads RAF Fetwell (sic)

[TonyE]

Yes, 100,000 were sent direct from the factory to India. The records state that these were from Remington, but do not say whether thay were from Remington Ilion or Remington Eddystone.

You are probably familiar with the P'14s that have come back from India in recent years with the small brass plate on them. The only one I have examined in detail was an Eddystone, but there is no proof that this was one of the ones shipped in WWI.

A nice picture, and as you say, almost certainly a training unit.

Cheers

TonyE

[TonyE]

Thanks TonyE, thats interesting. What sort of information was recorded on the butt disks of the Winchesters.? Yours seems to be clear of any markings but the one Chris posted looks to have something stamped on it. The disks were never put on the Remingtons.?

Cheers, S>S

PS. I will definitely keep my eyes open for a suitable bayonet for your rifle....it's the least I can do.!

I'll let you know if anything shows up. A matching month Remington will probably be your best bet.

The usual format for the butt disc was a unit abbreviation, followed by an issue date as a month and last two digits of the year and a rack number underneath that.

However, as so few of the P'14s were issued to the regular army they are not often encountered with markings on them. I don't know if the Remingtons had discs or not.

Regards

TonyE

[peregrinvs]

Well, well. I shall have another look tonight and try and sort out a picture. I apologise profusely in advance if I've noted down the number incorrectly.

(Which is probably the simplest explanation...)

I've had another look and taken a picture - the receiver serial is definitely W241462. I made an error and the bolt is matching, although going by the different font styles, it may be renumbered and it lacks the 'W' prefix.

Cheers,

Mark

[peregrinvs]

Picture of serial number on bolt.

[Thunderbox]

Mark - I am intrigued by the serial number of your Winchester P.14, because it is higher than the supposed total made by Winchester! The generally accepted total for the rifles made by Winchester is about 235,500 with the last few rifles accepted in the first week of July 1917. Stocktaking prior to the handover of the production facilities to the US government for the Model 1917 then took place on July 7th -8th. Skennerton gives a total of 235,448 and my own research for my dissertation (done by adding the weekly Ministry of Munitions returns)came to a total of 235,508.

I've seen several over W235,xxx, and one or two over W240,xxx. Perhaps Winchester simply started the numbering at, say, W10,000 ?

Here is W238255 (which I have sadly sold on), which was a brand-new condition P14 marked up as selected by Parker Hale:

[TonyE]

I've seen several over W235,xxx, and one or two over W240,xxx. Perhaps Winchester simply started the numbering at, say, W10,000 ?

Hi Seth

Good thinking Batman, but regrettably not the case. When the first ten rifles were accepted in America, five were sent to Enfield to be ananlysed in detail and I have a copy of that report by the Munitions Design Committee. They were numbered W22, W27, W40, W43 and W47.

This also indicates that there were not a great number of rifles that were either pre-production or made and rejected before serial deliveries bagan. It is a mystery to me why there should be rifles numbered in the 240 or 250 thousand series when all the documentation indicates they only made 235,000 rifles. Even the official History of the Ministry of Munitions states that after the cancellation of the P.14 contracts the total agreed with Winchester was 235,293.(Vol. XI, Part IV, p.51)

I will have a chat with Ian Skennerton and see if he has any ideas.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Hi Seth

Good thinking Batman, but regrettably not the case. When the first ten rifles were accepted in America, five were sent to Enfield to be ananlysed in detail and I have a copy of that report by the Munitions Design Committee. They were numbered W22, W27, W40, W43 and W47.

This also indicates that there were not a great number of rifles that were either pre-production or made and rejected before serial deliveries bagan. It is a mystery to me why there should be rifles numbered in the 240 or 250 thousand series when all the documentation indicates they only made 235,000 rifles. Even the official History of the Ministry of Munitions states that after the cancellation of the P.14 contracts the total agreed with Winchester was 235,293.(Vol. XI, Part IV, p.51)

I will have a chat with Ian Skennerton and see if he has any ideas.

Regards

TonyE

Skip Stratton (Vol 4) reports Winchester P14 production as 235,448 based I think on Skennerton (1983) as he cites no other sources for this set of data.

Chris

[TonyE]

I suppose one possible explanation is that there were 235,500 rifles accepted at Winchester, but that does not take account of those rejected by the inspectors along the way.

However, for the serial numbers to get to around 250,000 as the evidence suggests it would mean there were at least 15,000 rejections. That suggests a rejection rate of about 6% which seems much too high. Bear in mind also that these would have had to be receiver rejections, as any other faults, bad barrels, stocks etc, could have been remedied and the receiver (and hence serial number) accepted.

I think I will post a request for high serial numbers on one if the US forums to see what comes out of the woodwork.

Regards

TonyE

[gew98]

especially with the timberwork - some of those stamps look like they could have been done yesterday. wonder.....

What ? . The wood has definately been refinished. Where you come up with 'been done yesterday' I have cannot fathom. It's a nice shooter , but shooter it is.

[shippingsteel]

I suppose one possible explanation is that there were 235,500 rifles accepted at Winchester, but that does not take account of those rejected by the inspectors along the way.

However, for the serial numbers to get to around 250,000 as the evidence suggests it would mean there were at least 15,000 rejections. That suggests a rejection rate of about 6% which seems much too high. Bear in mind also that these would have had to be receiver rejections, as any other faults, bad barrels, stocks etc, could have been remedied and the receiver (and hence serial number) accepted.

I think I will post a request for high serial numbers on one if the US forums to see what comes out of the woodwork.

Regards

TonyE

This is just a suggestion - probably way off the mark, but could there have been pre-numbered receivers that remained in stock, that were later carried over and converted into the M1917 rifles, under the US ownership and production. I'm not sure how much was involved with the rechambering for the 30-06 round and how much machining would be needed to be done to the receiver. Just know that a lot of bayonets and other parts in stock were transferred into US ownership at the end of the British contract, so what about receivers and near-complete rifles that would not have been yet accepted.

Were the Winchester made M1917 rifles serial numbered in a similar manner to the P14's and where did those numbers start at.??

Please excuse my ignorance, as gew98 has kindly pointed out my knowledge is quite limited, but hey I'm always ready to be educated - in fact I enjoy it.

What kind of refinish IS that anyway.?? Apart from being a very nice looking one, that is.

Cheers, S>S