Uniform and Regiment identification please!

[Metid]

This is my Great Grandfather. Not sure if WW1 or Boer War uniform or which regiment he belonged to.

Can anyone help please identify?

Thanks

[4thGordons]

This is my Great Grandfather. Not sure if WW1 or Boer War uniform or which regiment he belonged to.

Can anyone help please identify?

Thanks

I don't think this is a kilt cover but I could be wrong...texture does not look right. If I am correct then he looks to be wearing a hodden grey kilt which would usually mean London Scottish - however the collar brasses and belt pattern suggest a Canadian unit and I think that the current Toronto Scottish wear a hodden grey kilt, the Toronto Scottish are a descendent unit from the IIRC 75th Bn of WWI vintage. Perhaps a Canadian expert could help?

The alternative to Hodden Grey is the short lived "Drab kilt" but my guess is Hodden Grey.

The jacket appears to have pointed pocket flaps which would suggest a territorial (or perhaps Candian Militia) pattern, rather than the standard 02 Service Dress, but perhaps they are just curled.

Posting your G-Grandfather's name might allow someone to track him down for you.

Chris

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

He is indeed a mamber of the 73rd Battalion CEF. The Royal Highlanders of Canada. This battalion wore a cap badge which was the same shape as that worn by the Black Watch, they also wore a very distinctive sporran, see link below-

http://sattlers.org/mickey/culture/clothin...ch/sporran.html

All the best,

Stewart

[Steven Broomfield]

I think that the current Toronto Scottish wear a hodden grey kilt,

Chris

Indeed they do.

However, if you look closely at the head-dress badge, it looks 'Black Watch' shaped, I think.

[Metid]

His name is Bertram Karlees Watkiss

I know he's not Black Watch but his cap badge is of similar shape and size.

[4thGordons]

So... did the 73rd Bn wear Hodden Grey or is it a drab kilt or a kilt cover?

Metid: I believe you should be able to search Canadian Archives for your Great Grandfather's file.

Chris

Edit

If he is 73rd Bn you may find him IN HERE - as far as I can see no index is provided so you will have to go through the whole thing and look.

Edit 2: there is an index and no Watkisses are listed. I find 3 Watkisses listed in the CEF Archives - though none with this name, 1 from London and 2 from Staffordshire

Name Date of Birth Rank Regimental number(s) Reference

1. WATKISS, EDWIN CLEMENT 18/05/1895 1009559 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10126 - 46

2. WATKISS, GEORGE 08/12/1881 706930 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10127 - 1

3. WATKISS, WILLIAM 16/09/1893 420358 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10127 - 2

Edited 29 June , 2010 by 4thGordons

[Metid]

Have seen the link to sporran before but for the life of me couldn't think why a Man for Lancashire, England ended up with them.

[Steven Broomfield]

I think the kilt has a sett in it: it looks to me like a squared pattern on it. A poor, and faded, photo, but I'd say it's a patterned tartan, as opposed to Hodden.

[Metid]

So... did the 73rd Bn wear Hodden Grey or is it a drab kilt or a kilt cover?

Metid: I believe you should be able to search Canadian Archives for your Great Grandfather's file.

Chris

Edit

If he is 73rd Bn you may find him IN HERE - as far as I can see no index is provided so you will have to go through the whole thing and look.

Edit 2: there is an index and no Watkisses are listed. I find 3 Watkisses listed in the CEF Archives - though none with this name, 1 from London and 2 from Staffordshire

Name Date of Birth Rank Regimental number(s) Reference

1. WATKISS, EDWIN CLEMENT 18/05/1895 1009559 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10126 - 46

2. WATKISS, GEORGE 08/12/1881 706930 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10127 - 1

3. WATKISS, WILLIAM 16/09/1893 420358 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10127 - 2

Couldn't find him onit either. He was born 1877.

[4thGordons]

Couldn't find him onit either. He was born 1877.

I am very confident this is a Canadian uniform.

As he does not appear to be listed in the CEF this raises a couple of possibilities

1) the picture is not who you think it is (far more common than might be thought...)

but if it definitely, unquestionably is then there are two other obvious possibilities

A) He is somehow missing from the CEF archive or not searchable as a result of a transcription error or name issue or

B ) He served in the Canadian forces but did not go overseas.

Given his date of birth he would have been 37 at the outbreak of the war - relatively old - so perhaps he stayed in Canada. As I understand it the records are only those of the CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force) so he would not figure in them. Again, perhaps a Canadian forces expert could point you in the right direction.

Have you examined transatlantic passenger records (or immigration records into Canada) to see if he is listed?

Steven: You may be correct but I don't think so. I don't see any indication of a sett. I can see a form of crosshatching which I think is a product of the photo/scanning process and is present all over the image not just the kilt. It may be a kilt cover or a drab kilt. Looking again I may discern a seam around the bottom edges which would make it a cover/apron although I have dozens and dozens of photos of these and they always seem to show far lighter than this.

Chris

[Metid]

Identification of is correct, as I have later photos after the war.

He was born in Cardiff, Wales 1877 died in Blackburn, Lancashire 1935

He appears on 1901 census living in Blackburn, Lancs but searches for ealier come up

with nothing.

[headgardener]

I am very confident this is a Canadian uniform.

As he does not appear to be listed in the CEF this raises a couple of possibilities

1) the picture is not who you think it is (far more common than might be thought...)

but if it definitely, unquestionably is then there are two other obvious possibilities

A) He is somehow missing from the CEF archive or not searchable as a result of a transcription error or name issue or

B ) He served in the Canadian forces but did not go overseas.

Given his date of birth he would have been 37 at the outbreak of the war - relatively old - so perhaps he stayed in Canada. As I understand it the records are only those of the CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force) so he would not figure in them.

Steven: You may be correct but I don't think so. I don't see any indication of a sett. I can see a form of crosshatching which I think is a product of the photo/scanning process and is present all over the image not just the kilt.

I agree that he's Canadian. The badges on his collars strongly indicate it. I'd agree with Stewart that he'll be 73rd Bn.

I've also had a problem finding a CEF man (see my current thread re; Jonathan Matheson). My understanding is that the database is not just men who served overseas, and that it would only be militia units (i.e. a bit like our VTC, home service only) that would be missing.

And I'd say that there's a definite sett visible on the kilt.

4thGordon; I see what you're saying about the photographic artefact, but there are a number of dark lines on the kilt, approx 3" or 4" squares, which are at an angle to the artefact that you mention. It's best visualized to the right of his sporran, about half an inch below the bottom carner of the flap. The curve of that line actually follows the curve of the material. There's also some evidence of a cross-check. But the photo is quite faded and I think that this is what makes it so difficult to interpret.

[4thGordons]

Well you (and Steven) may well be correct....

I searched through my collection and came up with this, its a rather damaged image.... but appears to show an identical kilt/sporran combination worn by a Canadian in France. I have not been able to identify the unit on my picture definitively so if the sporran is unique to the unit (as Gnr.Ktrtha / Stewart indicates : 73rd Bn) it should be possible to discover the type of tartan worn.

However, as we have the original subjects name, DOB etc it is a question of the missing records I suppose.

Chris

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

your problem may be that the 73rd Bn was withdrawn in April 1917 after heavy casualties at Vimy Ridge it was replaced by 85th Bn and the men were absorbed by 13th, 42nd and 85th Battalions so your man could have moved on to one of those Battalions.

regards

John

[Ghost]

Metid,

Are you sure this is not Bertie Miles Watkiss, born Cardiff 1884, who does have a MIC.

Alan

[rd72]

Hello all,

If I might help out.... The 73rd was one of the battalions that was known to have worn a "Drab Tartan". Due to a shortage of real tartan, a substitute was manufactured with a drab colour in place of the familar dark greens, blues and blacks of common military tartans. Overstripes were added to effect a regimental aspect to the kilt.

If I may....

Rob

[4thGordons]

Hello all,

If I might help out.... The 73rd was one of the battalions that was known to have worn a "Drab Tartan". Due to a shortage of real tartan, a substitute was manufactured with a drab colour in place of the familar dark greens, blues and blacks of common military tartans. Overstripes were added to effect a regimental aspect to the kilt.

If I may....

Rob

Excellent Stuff Rob - many thanks! Pity our pics didn't conveniently have the number on the sporran!

Chris

[Metid]

Metid,

Are you sure this is not Bertie Miles Watkiss, born Cardiff 1884, who does have a MIC.

Alan

Hi Alan,

Wish it was.. sadly Its Bertram Karlees Watkiss

[headgardener]

I posted here a day or two ago and mentioned that I've been looking for a CEF man whose name appears to be missing from the database.

Check out THIS POST on my thread.

Maybe your man DOES have a file after all..............?

[4thGordons]

Hi Alan,

Wish it was.. sadly Its Bertram Karlees Watkiss

There is a Betram Watkiss (spouse Margaret) listed in the 1920 US census living in Philadelphia

I do not have an ancestry membership currently so I cannot check details but it can't be all that common a combination of names - perhaps worth checking, perhaps spent some time in North America pre/post war before returning to the UK?

Chris

[Metid]

There is a Betram Watkiss (spouse Margaret) listed in the 1920 US census living in Philadelphia

I do not have an ancestry membership currently so I cannot check details but it can't be all that common a combination of names - perhaps worth checking, perhaps spent some time in North America pre/post war before returning to the UK?

Chris

Hi Chris, His spouse's name was Anne. No one in family has ever heard of him moving to Canada or US. He was a market stall owner in Blackburn 1901 aged 24 and apparently did that for many years. Regiment link puzzling!

[headgardener]

No one in family has ever heard of him moving to Canada or US. He was a market stall owner in Blackburn 1901 aged 24 and apparently did that for many years. Regiment link puzzling!

Easily explained by him travelling to Canada shortly before the war, joining up in order to defend the mother-land, coming back here and then, at the end of the war, deciding to stay. It's really not so strange. I've seen it several times with men who joined both the AIF and CEF. The total time they spent in the 'new world' amounted to no more than a few months in some cases. I even came across the case of a sailor who jumped ship in Sydney in August 1914 in order to join the AIF, and was then shipped out to Gallipoli in early '15. He stayed in the UK after the war, no sign of him ever returning to Australia. Total time spent in Australia; no more than a few months. Yet WW1 history effectively records him as an Australian.

I think that some colonial troops were also recruited in the UK. Perhaps he tried to join the British army, didn't get in, then tried elsewhere.

There is one other possibility; he's dressed up in someone else's uniform. But it fits reasonably well, and my experience of 'dressing up' photos is that there are several tell-tale signs that the man (or woman) is not entirely familiar with the uniform they're wearing. Unlikely, though not impossible.

Maybe you'll need to get someone to check the Canadian Archives for you........

[Ghost]

There is a thread somewhere on the forum about glass plate photos found in a chimney. Some of the posts in that thread mention British servicemen transferred to Canadian Regiments. In such a case the C.E.F. would not have a Canadian, attestation form, and the man would need no other connection with Canada.

Alan

[Guest]

Is THIS the thread?

Mike

[Myrtle]

Metid

It looks as if he was listed as Bertram K. Watkins in the 1881 census, living in Hackney, therefore I suggest that you check the Canadian records etc. using that name.

Myrtle