Desmond7 Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 On the 'crossed plank' graves of wartime cemeteries, it is common to see the RIP phrase displayed above the names and details of soldiers. Someone has told me that this was wrongly used on the graves of denominations such as Anglican, Baptists, Presbyterians etc. because of their beliefs. I got a garbled version, but the person maintained that these denominations would frown on such words on a gravestone. Since Edwardians are routinely portrayed as more religious and certainly evangelistic than subsequent generations, how was such a 'mistake' if it was a mistake, made? And why was it not corrected? Anyone got an explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 What's a 'Crossed Plank Grave'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_59 Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 a wooden cross? dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 What's a 'Crossed Plank Grave'? I'm sure Desmond7 is referring to the early wooden grave markers, used prior to the stone type of headstone that we are now familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 1 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2004 That's the very one. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 Des Heathen that I am - what can be wrong with using the words 'Rest in Peace' on a grave of any denomination? If not appropriate for Anglicans, Baptists or Presbyterians, which religions was it acceptable to, and why? [Or am I asking the same question as you?] Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 My Da used to reckon RIP meant. 'Roast in Purgatory' Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEG Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 As the Roman Catholic Church is absent from Desmond’s list of objecting religions, is it possible that the phrase RIP was considered offensive by some who perhaps regarded it as ‘Roman’ in that it could be seen as offering prayers for the dead. As a practising atheist, I put this forward as a suggestion, not an opinion. Janet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 'Rest in Peace' is the English translation of the Latin phrase 'Requiem in Pace'. Some non-Catholics might consider it an insult to use a 'Roman' mesage on an 'Anglican' headston or grave marker. I doubt that many people today would object as most seem to think that R.I.P means Rest in Peace. As a Catholic I have no problems with it being used by other denominations. I hope the troops do Rest in Peace. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Garth, Shouldn't that be "Requiesce in Pace' from the Latin verb requiescere, which means to rest? A requiem is something else IIRC (it's been a while since I had Latin). Regards, Jan (just a little bit splitting hairs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Surely it can't be a derogatory inscription on the grounds of it's Latin origin. One of the most common inscrptions on Anglican stones at that time was the ubiquitious 'IHS' which I know has many different meanings and interpretations, but most are Latin - e.g. 'in hoc salus' or [and here my Latin fails me] 'Jesus Saviour of Man.' Even the Navy has 'IHS' on it's non standard war graves. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Jan Could well be. My Latin is a 'bit' rusty and I don't have enough hairs left to split. But I'm sure you got my meaning Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 2 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Folks - coming from Northern Ireland I was hedging my bets! This anomaly was pointed out to me by a Church of Ireland clergyman. He reckoned a substantial number of his predecessors' 'flocks' had been buried in this manner. He wasn't making a big deal of it - just simply pointing out how the term RIP was in such common usage. He reckoned most soldiers had absolutely no knowledge of its origin and it was written on grave markers without a second thought. Being a wedding and funeral attender, I was completely unaware of the origins of the phrase until he pointed it out. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 2 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2004 For example - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 2 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2004 The man himself:- Private Leslie Houston MRS. L. Houston, Salisbury Square, Harryville, has received a message from the War Office informing her that her husband, Pte Leslie Houston of the Royal Innis. Fus. has died of wounds in the Second Clearing Hospital on October 31. He leaves behind a wife and four children, with whom much sympathy is felt. Pte Houston was an employee of H. Lancashire’s, Church Street, when he was called up in the reserves last August. He was well known in football circles having played for Linfield Swifts and was for many years connected with South-End Rangers. Ballymena Observer, December 11, 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Des Heathen that I am - what can be wrong with using the words 'Rest in Peace' on a grave of any denomination? If not appropriate for Anglicans, Baptists or Presbyterians, which religions was it acceptable to, and why? [Or am I asking the same question as you?] Sue Isn't there a reference to this in the novel "Billy Liar"? One of the many things that Billy did wrong whilst working in "Shadrach's (sp?) Funeral Directors" office was to have "RIP" written on a non-Catholic grave, or memorial card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Perhaps not acceptable to the Jewish faith? Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 a lot of people still use RIP in the books in the cemeteries, so are they wrong also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 2 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2004 At a distance in time, the clergyman was making the ironic point that many men who would have strictly adhered to reformed denominations were buried in this manner. Even more ironically, he suggested that many of them from this part of the world would have been Orangemen!! Can I make it absolutely clear that this post was simply to clear up a minor issue for me. But, having thought about it, there is another issue here. Chaplains would surely have had burial services amongst their duties. Does the widespread use of RIP indicate that barriers between denominations were becoming unimportant in the trenches? On the other side of the coin you have Senior Chaplain of VIII Corps on the eve of the Somme refusing to administer Holy Communion unless 'every participant would declare himself a regular Communicant of the Anglican Church' ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 2 June , 2004 Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Hello Desmond This is a holding reply. I believe I may be able to access a definitive answer in due course. In the meantime, I pass on a few thoughts. I am a Nonconformist, or if you like, a Dissenter. I’ve never seen RIP used in any of my family’s burials or cremations, though that doesn’t mean it’s never been done. Requiescat (or requiescant, plural) in pace – may she, he (they) rest in peace – expresses a hope for salvation. To the Dissenter, the phrase implies that there is a waiting time (‘purgatory’ in some terms) between death and heaven, during which the soul is ‘resting’. This idea of this intermediate state, where you may get a second chance, is not a Nonconformist concept. As you’re asking about beliefs at the time of the Great War, the concept of a ‘middle area’ would have been even more foreign to contemporary Dissenters. I think it’s essential to view the question in the context of Nonconformity at the time, with neither our more liberal attitudes of 2004 nor the education which has enabled us to question the concepts which previous generations accepted. The views of the Church of England are outside my experience. I would appreciate it if readers would view this answer in the spirit in which it is intended and not as an invitation to provoke me into defending my personal, spiritual beliefs online. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 2 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2004 Thanks Gwyn - this goes a long way towards the explanation I was seeking. You seem to have taken some time to mull this over and come up with information which is valuable to me and my ongoing research. Much appreciated. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 As a practising atheist, I put this forward as a suggestion, not an opinion. Janet Janet I am curious, but how do you "practice" atheism? Religion is practised by believers, but can a non belief be practiced? Please don't misinterepret my post, it's not intended as a criticism, but more as an exploration into semantics! As for the letters RIP, to me they seem pretty harmless whether one believes or not (I don't). Like most grave markings I believe they are intended to give comfort to the living rather than the dead who are beyond feeling. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 I am curious, but how do you "practice" atheism? Religion is practised by believers, but can a non belief be practiced? Hello Tim It could be argued that the definition of atheism is "the active rejection of belief in the existance of God", therefore as it is active it has to be practised. Just a thought. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 3 June , 2004 Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Chaplains would surely have had burial services amongst their duties. Does the widespread use of RIP indicate that barriers between denominations were becoming unimportant in the trenches? On the other side of the coin you have Senior Chaplain of VIII Corps on the eve of the Somme refusing to administer Holy Communion unless 'every participant would declare himself a regular Communicant of the Anglican Church' ... From what I have read Chaplains were supposed to be a bit back from the fighting. Protestants were more likely to obey this, but Catholic Chaplains were not. I understand that this was because they needed to give the "last rites" to the mortally wounded. Also, Catholics were more likely to be of working class origin, than C of E, and thus more likely to "bond" with the men. Only what I read somewhere I actually have my own views about all religions. Tony - "Jedi Knight" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 3 June , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2004 Hi folks - Many thanks for all the replies. However, I am not a fool and realise that there is potential for this post to turn into a problem. I am not suggesting that this has happened so far but I think everyone has to admit that the potential is there. That was never my intention. I am quite satisified with the 'holding answer' which Gwyn has provided as to why dissenters would not normally have the term RIP on grave-markers. A factual question was posed and a factual answer received. It just reinforces my earlier point that these men were buried in abnormal circumstances. It is obvious that the men who put RIP on the markers did so as a gesture of respect and compassion. Since I have no theological knowledge beyond the Lord's Prayer, I am ill-equipped to enter into any debate on this subject! At the start of a new Millennium, I have no problem with the term RIP - I agree that the vast majority of people simply put it down as a gesture of respect and of compassion. People seem to write much nastier things on the Memorial Books at Cemeteries so there can be no argument about RIP or any other latin term associated with death and remembering. And, to end ... Forum Members should understand that I am researching a period of Irish history where an individual's personal religious belief mattered very much indeed. It was a symbol of belonging to a certain grouping and in most cases defined their political outlook. I cannot change Irish history or the way people lived their lives then. I can only record what it says on obituaries, newspaper reports etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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