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corisande

Is this suicide after Bloody Sunday verifiable?

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corisande
The number '1' on the 1916 Army List may indicate the 1/12th (County of London) Battalion which was part of 168th Brigade in 56th (London) Division at this time, rather than the 2/12th (County of London) Battalion which was at Bromeswell Heath at this time.

Yes I would go along with that,Mark, his posting is certainly to 1st Battalion 12 London Regt. But he seems to be seconded somewhere else for his "special appointment", and is not restored to 1/12 London till Aug 1919

If his entire Army career had been as a "spook", it might well explain his mental state at the end of his life.

And I would go along with that too, Ian.

I guess what is now unclear is his role in Dublin. The records indicate ADRIC, but if he had the training as a spook, then he would not have been doing something as "mundane" as patrolling the streets.

In addition he was lumped in with the Bloody Sunday victims, which probably would not have happened if he was "just" and ADRIC man.

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IPT

82143779.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548540C81813DBE1366366CF32E4F287F678643AEEA424D9F70

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-GB&family=editorial&assetType=image&ebd=1920-11-25&eed=1920-11-25&p=bloody%20sunday%20dublin

The bodies were transported back to the mainland on HMS Seawolf for the funeral at Westminster Abbey. Was this ALL victims on the day, because the official line was that they were all officers, civilians etc. Did they differentiate between spies, hitmen, admin, officers, police?

The comment that he would go to prison may indicate that he had done some bad things in his time. Also, if he was a full-time spy, is it possible that he was ever delivered behind the lines on a plane which crashed? He may have spoken French?

Why is his name crossed out and amended to Spenle? A simple spellng mistake or a pseudonym?

Are there any clues in the roles of the men he was billetted with? Was he inside or outside the castle? Does the fact that it was reported directly to Winter have a significance, or would that have been the case whatever his role was?

Apologies for the wild speculation, but the truth in these threads is so often stranger than fiction.... it will be great to see what's in his file. Someone must have reported the condition he was in.

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ianw

He may have spoken French?

Almost certainly with a Swiss mother and a father from Alsace

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corisande
Did they differentiate between spies, hitmen, admin, officers, police?

If you look at the list that were taken to HMS Seawolf

The-Irish-Times---Saturday,.jpg

The people missing are, and only MacLean is recognised by CWGC. I have included links to these men's' CVs

"civilians" from the Bloody Sunday murders - Wildean ex-officer & Smith(Smith was Irish& obviously would not have been brought back to England)

Fitzgerald - RIC, Irish, but ex-British officer

MacLean - he should have been there. Scottish serving officer. He was buried in CWGC grave in Dublin

MacCormack - was a civilian, recent ex-officer, Irish

Plus Spenle from the "official list of casualties" He is not recognised as a CWGC grave (nor are the other two ADRIC men Morrisand Garniss.

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corisande

Why is his name crossed out and amended to Spenle? A simple spelling mistake or a pseudonym?

I don't think I would read too much into that, the stenographer probably had no idea how to spell the name.

Are there any clues in the roles of the men he was billeted with? Was he inside or outside the castle? Does the fact that it was reported directly to Winter have a significance, or would that have been the case whatever his role was?

They were at that time lodged outside the Castle. Because his room mate's name is etched out, I have no idea who it was, nor where he lived. It is possible that he was in one of the houses raided that morning, and for whatever reason was not at home.

Apologies for the wild speculation, but the truth in these threads is so often stranger than fiction.... it will be great to see what's in his file. Someone must have reported the condition he was in.

Yes, they were a colourful bunch, presumably why they volunteered to serve in Ireland - I still think it would be difficult to beat Carew's life story

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IPT

" I still think it would be difficult to beat Carew's life story "

Carew? You mean the name-changing soldier, student, landed gentry, stage-door johnny, philanderer, property speculator, great white hunter, theatre manager assailant, Military Cross winning fearless tank commander, assassin, MBE winning Carew who survived two IRA attempts on his life and was still trying to enlist in his seventies?

Sounds like another desk johnny to me.

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johnny_doyle

on the census record, the father is noted as being from Alsace with a note alongside to say Germany. Reading up, Alsace appears to have been part of Germany from 1871 to 1918. If his father was from Germany, would that have had any bearing on Henry's career? The father appears to have worked with Sir James Farmer at the Adelphi Iron Works in Salford and has two patents to his name for improvements in textile manufacturing. No death record found so far.

John's wife was Mary Elizabeth Davies which would tie in with the 1912 probate/death with the address in Switzerland.

Henry's wife appears to have been Sybil Schaublin and/or Schanblin so another surname with a potential for typos. No sign in the 1901 census or of a death record or 2nd marriage for her.

The brother Charles Davies Spenle appears to have travelled widely and lived in many locations according to the travel records on Ancestry. He appears to have spoken English and Spanish, lived in China, France, Argentina, travelled to Australia, New Zealand, USA, West Indies. His last record in 1960 gives France as his residence. No death record found for him or his wife Rosa Catherine/Caterina. His occupation is listed as Rep on one record and engineer on all others. One patent to his name that I can find :

http://www.boliven.com/patent/US2332407

Surprising that Henry and Charles weren't in the RE.

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corisande
If his father was from Germany, would that have had any bearing on Henry's career?

That sort of background does not seem to have caused problems - there are lots on Germanic names on MIC database, and anyway Spenle is sufficiently French

I did come across one of the undercover men who changed his name from Carl Ratsch to Charles Peel (details here). It was quite a job tracing him back in time.

There is probably a whole book in the making for people who changed their names - Battenberg to Mountbaten, Saxe-Coburg-Gothe to Windsor and so on.

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mhifle

Hi,

Here is his brother Charles graduating from Manchester University 30 June 1921 with a degree in Applied Chemistry.

Regards Mark

post-14045-047449800 1285258911.jpg

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corisande

Thanks Mark

You remind me that I need to find a descendant of the two Spenle brothers. Mind you I am not sure that they really want to know about his suicide.

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mhifle

Hi,

Just got a copy of his service record

Regards Mark

No. 5422 Henry Emile Spenle

Dronfield, Wealdstone, Middlesex

Born 3 Sept 1896 Manchester

Church of England

Education Manchester Grammer School, 5 years at Bale, Switzerland

Languages French and German (Certificate in German from ‘Obere Realochule’ Bale, Switzerland)

Not able to ride

Chemistry Student

Father John Spenle, Avenue des Templiers 27 Epinal, Voges France (Mechanical Engineer)

26 Nov 1915 Attested at Dukes Road, WC (19 years 2 months)

26 Nov 1915 Posted & Embodied 2/28th London Regiment (Artists Rifle’s) Rank Cadet

4 March 1916 Transferred CU 2nd Artist’s Rifles OTC (Cadet Unit) 9h London Regiment, Gidea Park, Romford

3 May Passed Medical at Gidea Hall, Romford

8 May 1916 Recommended for a commission

9 May 1916 Transferred to 2/28th London Regiment

25 May 1916 Passed Cadet School

30 May 1916 Approved for commission

1 June 1916 Cadet H E Spenle to be 2nd Lieutenant with 12th London Regiment

11 June 1916 Discharged being appointed 2nd Lieutenant 3/12th London Regiment (199 days service, Character Good)

12 June 1916 Cadet Henry Emile Spenle from Artist’s Rifles OTC to be 2nd Lieutenant on probation with 12th (Reserve) Battalion London Regiment

12 June 1916 to 10 July 1916 Service at Home

28 June 1916 at Fovant Camp

10 July 1916 Embarked at Southampton

11 July 1916 Disembarked Le Havre, Expeditionary Force France

11 July 1916 Arrived Base Depot Le Havre

29 July 1916 Joined unit for duty in the field 1/12th London Regiment

5 Oct 1916 Admitted 5th CCS P.U.O

5 Oct 1916 Admitted No.2 Stationary Hospital P.U.O., Abbeville

19 Oct 1916 No.2 Stationary Hospital Medical Board 2nd Lieutenant H E Spenle debility due to exposure. Recommends 21 days leave.

22 Oct 1916 Granted 21 days leave

14 Nov 1916 To duty with unit

1 Dec 1916 Rank confirmed

11 Dec 1916 Joined for Duty with XI. Corps HQ

8 Feb 1917 Admitted 33 CCS

13 Feb 1917 To Duty

11 March 1917 Appointed 4th Class Agent Intelligence Corps (signed For O i/c Terr Inf “Southern Section” GHQ 3rd Echelon BEF)

12 Dec 1917 Promoted to Lieutenant

11 March 1917 Staff Lieutenant 3rd Class

11 August 1917 to 16 Aug 1919 Staff Lieutenant 2nd Class

22 Aug 1919 Disembodied

30 Sept 1921 Relinquished commission under AO 166/21 as amended by AO 332/21 retaining the rank of Lieutenant (LG 18/11/21)

6 Sept 1935 Service enquiry from ‘M of P’ into Service Records for dates Disembodied and Relinquished commission.

post-14045-059295300 1287574692.jpg

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corisande

Marks

Thanks

what I could not understand about him, and it is confirmed here is that he relinquishes commission 30 Sep 1921, but he committed suicide Nov 1920. complete with funeral. So the commission is relinquished nearly a year after he kills himself!

Interesting his service record says "Appointed 4 class agent in Intelligence Corps Mar 1917."

Link to my notes on Spenle as they now stand

It is an intriguing thought that he might not have committed suicide, but that this was a ruse to free him up. Bit convoluted. But the paperwork after "death" looks odd

Other odd thing is that both witnesses at his inquest refer to his "crash" and both put it in inverted commas, and further we have found no reference to him being with the RAF

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mhifle

Hi,

The enquiry in 1935 from 'M of P' would this be Ministry of Pensions? If he was still alive he would be 39/40 years old at this point.

Here is part of the enquiry.

Could be the 'crash' be when he was admitted to 33 CCS 8 Feb 1917, looks like something to do with his back.

Regards Mark

post-14045-060197800 1287578160.jpg

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headgardener
what I could not understand about him, and it is confirmed here is that he relinquishes commission 30 Sep 1921, but he committed suicide Nov 1920. complete with funeral. So the commission is relinquished nearly a year after he kills himself!

It is an intriguing thought that he might not have committed suicide, but that this was a ruse to free him up. Bit convoluted. But the paperwork after "death" looks odd

The 'relinquishing commision' reference is a pretty standard reference; a lot of ex-officers relinquished their commissions under AO166/21. I can't remember the exact wording of it (someone hereabouts is bound to....) but I seem to recall that it relates to the compulsory termination of service of officers (TF, I think) who had previously been disembodied and transferred to the Reserve. What it implies in Spenle's case is that the army did not know he was already dead.

The service details posted by mhifle suggest that he wasn't re-engaged as a serving officer in the army after being disembodied. Is there any chance that he could have died while serving either in non-military intelligence, the Police or perhaps the RAF? He would have been entitled to describe himself as 'Lieutenant' at the time of his presumed death, even if he wasn't actually a serving officer.

The 1935 reference ('M o P') relates to the Ministry of Pensions, and might imply that a dependant was seeking entitlement to a pension relating to his service. Assuming that there was a mismatch of records (one showing him dying in Dublin in 1920, and another showing him being discharged very alive in 1921, then that may have be sufficient reason to trigger an enquiry.

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corisande
he relinquishes commission 30 Sep 1921, but he committed suicide Nov 1920

What it implies in Spenle's case is that the army did not know he was already dead. or that he was still alive

The service details posted by mhifle suggest that he wasn't re-engaged as a serving officer in the army after being disembodied..

LG shows him being on the same day 1919 Aug 22. 12th Bn., London Regt.—Lt: H. E. Spenle is restored to the establishment

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corisande
PUO

He seems to have been admitted for PUO which apparently is pyrexia of unknown origin or to you and me a "fever of unknown origin"

Then later for the thing to do with his back

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mhifle

Hi,

20 April 1916 Henry Edward Bartley Esq (address Dronfield Wealdstone, Middlesex) signed as his Guardian as he was under 21 on his Application for entry to an Officer Cadet Unit and J L Palon MA Highmaster, Manchester Grammar School confirmed his Education level. Character reference George Thomas, JP. Irlam Hall, Irlam, Manchester (Enginner & Exporter of Machinery)

Regards Mark

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David_Underdown

With regard to the lack of MIC, remember that officers (or their next of kin) had to apply for their medals, they weren't issued automatically as they were to Other Ranks.

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corisande

There is a good background discussion to the Intelligence Corps in WW1 on this old thread

 

Spenle was on the last entry I can see, 4th grade, which was later called Class II,

Odd thing with many of these Intelligence men is that their MICs have disappeared/been pulled.

Try finding MIC for A C C Farmer and B H Emery who identified Spenle's body in the inquest (the report is on my web page). They both appear to be Intelligence, but are down as ADRIC and Police Authority on inquest.

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David_Underdown

Or as I say these men simply didn't get to applying for the medals. More interested in having the adventure, rather than having the bits of tape to prove it perhaps?

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mhifle

Hi,

I found these French Soldiers with the same family name.

Regards Mark

Soldiers who died for France during World War I

SPENLE Charles Alexandre 05-05-1891 51 - MARNE

SPENLE Ernest Lucien 17-10-1888 51 - MARNE

SPENLE Walter 18-01-1897 Alsace Lorraine

post-14045-010226800 1287662803.jpg

post-14045-039109000 1287662811.jpg

post-14045-031983200 1287662862.jpg

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headgardener
LG shows him being on the same day 1919 Aug 22. 12th Bn., London Regt.—Lt: H. E. Spenle is restored to the establishment

.......of the 12th London Regt.

Your man was a TF officer; being disembodied is not the same as being discharged. He had been serving on a Staff appointment up to the date of disembodiment, at which point he was 'stood down' and returned to the 'establishment' (or the administrative charge) of the battalion. His discharge was later processed according to AO166/21 (as the army shed its surplus TF officers).

Basically, a TF man is a civilian until being mobilized (or 'embodied'). A pre- or post-war TF officer would appear in the Army List even though his 'service' would only amount to a standard number of training days per year. His 'embodied' service would start when he was 'called up' and would end when he was 'stood down'. He would still remain on the establishment of the battalion until relinquishing his commission or being otherwise discharged for administrative or disciplinary reasons.

The extract posted by mhifle indicates that, at the time of his death, Henry Emile Spenle had been 'stood down' and that he had no 'embodied' service after 22 August 1919. Therefore, technically still a Lieutenant, but not actually in 'service' (not ARMY service, at least).

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headgardener
Odd thing with many of these Intelligence men is that their MICs have disappeared/been pulled.

Try finding MIC for A C C Farmer and B H Emery who identified Spenle's body in the inquest

THIS B.H. Emery? I haven't had time to look for Farmer, but there's lots of ways in which Intelligence men might get recorded on MIC's.

Or as I say these men simply didn't get to applying for the medals. More interested in having the adventure, rather than having the bits of tape to prove it perhaps?

I'd agree with David on this, unless of course there's evidence of intelligence men who definitely had medals issued to them, but whose MIC's are clearly absent.

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mhifle

Hi,

For the Medal Card

Bryan Hardcastle Emery

Spec. Service GHQ 2/Lieut

11th London Rgt T/Capt

Theatre of War: N. Russia 1/10/18

Applied for Medals 3/8/20

EF9 returned 3/8/20

Medals issued BM & VM 9/322

Address: 40 Kingsmead Road, London SW2 (date next to his is 1/9/20)

Emery

Could this be the Medal Card for A C C Farmer

A C C Farmer

Regards Mark

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Sinabhfuil

Poor lad. The useful genealogical search site http://www.pilot.familysearch.org lists his death (I'll try to attach a screenshot, but I'm new here, so bear with my inexperience if it doesn't work), and the certificate would be available (with this information) from the Registry Office in the Irish Life Mall, off Talbot Street in Dublin.

Hm. That didn't seem to work (I used the 'Attach File' option). But if you want to see what I'm trying to post, go to the site quoted above, enter 'Spenle' and choose 'Death/Burial', and then enter 'Dublin, Ireland'.

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