William Lorraine King, MC DCM

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

Yes, it is the correct service number, I had not found his MIC and award cards, but it was on later LG mentions

[mhifle]

Hi,

He is listed as part of a Family Tree in ancestry,co.uk where they have him as having died in East Africa 1942?

Mark

[corisande]

Mark

Yes, I got that one earlier, I think they are mistaken, as he appears in CWGC as buried in Gaza, rather than just a plaque.

I have tried to contact the tree owner, but they have not signed on to Ancestry for over 6 months, and I guess do not belong any more- hence my PM will not even have got through.

[Carmania]

There are mentions of both King and J L Hardy in Kenneth Griffith & Timothy O'Grady's book 'Ireland's Unfinished Revolution: An Oral History'. Also in T Ryle Dwyer's 'Michael Collins: The Man Who Won The War'. If you do not already have them I'll scan the relevant extracts and send them on to you.

Aled

[corisande]

Aled

Please, can I take you up on the offer. I thought I had just about every book, but evidently not those two.

[mhifle]

Hi,

This is a link to 'A SOUTH AFRICAN IN FRANCE 1916/1917' which is an account of a soldiers service with the 2nd South African Infantry Battalion in France, joining the Battalion after Delville Wood as part of a replacement draft

Regards Mark

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol082rb.html

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

That diary is a very graphic account of 2nd SA and fills in a lot of the gaps in what they were doing

[corisande]

I have tried to contact the tree owner, but they have not signed on to Ancestry for over 6 months, and I guess do not belong any more- hence my PM will not even have got through.

I finally managed to trace the tree owner via a very circuitous route.

They added a few details about his life before and after Ireland, but like most of the men who served in Ireland, very little information handed down to the family

The updated CV is at William King

In particular the new bits are:-

1.He joined 1st Middlesex Royal Engineers (Volunteers) as a Sapper in 1901

2.joins the South African Police in 1902 as a first class detective head constable

3.decorated for his role in saving lives in the Bloemfontien floods in 1904

4.1919 went back to the police when served for one year between 1919 and 1920 as a staff officer and instructor with the Gold Coast Police in Accra before returning to join ADRIC in 1920

5. mobilised on 5th of March 1940. He was appointed Deputy Assistant Provost Marshall, 51st Highland Division and firstly was posted to DAPM HQ in Nigeria. Later he was posted to Alexandria. he was appointed Town Major of Raja and Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal on 19th of April 1941. He was posted to Corps of Military police Base depot on 14th September 1941and died a little more than a year later whilst still serving.

[mhifle]

Hi,

1st Middlesex Royal Engineers (Volunteers) were based at 67 College Street, Fulham.

Mark

[mhifle]

Hi

1st Middlesex Royal Engineers (Volunteers) was under canvas at Clacton-on Sea training on 5 Aug 1901.

Mark

From The Times 8 April 1901

[corisande]

Thanks Mark, you are always a fund of information

[mhifle]

Hi,

This might be him travelling out to South Africa

Mark

Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960

Name: William KING

Date of departure: 23 November 1901

Port of departure: Plymouth

Destination port: Cape

Destination country: South Africa

Date of Birth: 1880 (calculated from age)

Age: 21

Marital Status: Single

Sex: Male

Occupation: Laborer

Notes:

Passenger recorded on: Page 1 of 2

Ship: AOTEA

Official Number:

Master's name: A E Evans

Steamship Line: Weekes Phillips & Co

Where bound: New Zealand

Square feet: 4722

Registered tonnage: 6364

Passengers on voyage: 24

On this manifest aswell but crossed out

Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960

Name: Wm KING

Date of departure: 21 November 1901

Port of departure: London

Destination port: Cape

Destination country: South Africa

Date of Birth: 1880 (calculated from age)

Age: 21

Marital Status: Single

Sex: Male

Occupation: Labourer

Notes:

Passenger recorded on: Page 2 of 5

Ship: AOTEA

Official Number:

Master's name: J Evans

Steamship Line: Shaw Savill & Albion Co Limited

Where bound: New Zealand

Square feet: 4722

Registered tonnage: 6364

Passengers on voyage: 174

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

Doubt that is him, the age is wrong, William Lorraine King was born 1884, and I suspect he would have gone by troopship if he went with the Middlesex Volunteers (I could be wrong there as I have no idea whether they had to get themselves to South Africa ). He is in the census as an apprentice carpenter, so may not have owned up to "labourer" on manifest

It is the right sort of date though. He was in London in time for the census in April 1901, and the family say he went to SA in 1901

[mhifle]

Hi

The 1st Middlesex Royal Engineers (Volunteers) supplied 8 men to the 'City Of London Volunteers, formed in Dec 1899 and departed for South Africa in 7 detachments during

Jan/Feb 1900. During next 7 months upto Oct 1900 it had 6 killed in action, 65 wounded, 37 died of diease, 130 invalided from sickness.

Regards Mark

[mhifle]

The 1st Middlesex Royal Engineers arrived back at Southampton on 26 July 1902

Regards Mark

The Times 28 July 1902

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

[mhifle]

Hi,

I came across this but no William King listed in this draft.

Regards Mark

1st Middlesex Royal Engineers

Listed aboard RMS Tintagel castle, sailed from Southampton on Sat 10 March 1901, arriving Table Bay on Sat 31 March 1901.

Regtl. No. Name

Rank / Initial

Henriques Lieut R

6115 Gibbs Sergt FG

6116 Wiltshire Corpl CG

6117 Webb 2nd Corpl AE

6118 Young L Corpl JH

6125 Arnold Sapper S

6123 Bettridge RH

6136 Broughton SE

6119 Burton GA

6130 Clarke WE

6127 Davis WC

6128 Falkner SG

6121 Fidkin FW

6126 Frost Sapper G

6129 Gilchrist AP

6120 Hammond WJ

6139 Heath AH

6131 Johnson G

6134 Langley E

6132 Medyuski GF

6135 Mitchell AE

6137 Moir J

6138 Ray G

6124 Streeter G

6133 Tones EJC

6122 Whitmore H

[corisande]

I don't have a service number for him in that outfit. But he certainly went some time after the census in 1901 and before Christmas.

From what you gave me before, they went out in 6 or 7 groups. Must have gone by regular passenger liners rather than troop ships, unless HMG requisitioned ships like RMS Tintagel castle

[mhifle]

Here are two drafts returning to the UK in 1901 & 1902

They seem to have been operating in active service sections of 22 to 25 men. The section would undergo a course of training at the School of Military Engineering at Chatham before going to South Africa.

While the City Of London Volunteers were being organised a Special Army Order dated 2 Jan 1900 authorised the raising of a number of volunteer servive companies.

In order to overcome the legal restrictions of the Volunteer Act, volunteers were required to enlist into the regular army, for a period of one year. When their service was completed, the first series of volunteer companies were ordered home from South Africa. They were replaced by a new group raised under an Army Order isssued in Jan 1901. This group after seeing alot of action were replaced by a a fresh group in 1902.

Regards Mark

1901

London Times 13 April 1901

The Tagus left for England with the following on passage home:

Vol. Co. Cameron Highlanders – Capt. A.D. Mackinnon, Lts. J. Burn & J. Campbell & 60 men

Vol. Co, R. W. Kent – Capt. G. Morphew, Lts. C.S. Merchant, & C.N. Watney & 112 men

Vol. Co. Duke of Cornwall’s L.I. – Capt. E.A. Jackson & Lt. G.E.S. Smith and 66 men

Vol. Co. Gordon Highlanders – Lts. A.M. Robertson, W.O. Duncan, & A.W. Robertson & 65 men

Vol. Co. Border – Capt. J. Thompson, Lts. J.F. Haswell & A. Lee & 98 men

Vol. Co. Wiltshire – Lt. R.H. Kendle and 76 men

1/London Vol. Engineers – Lt. R.C. Weld and 40 men

Vol. Co. Suffolk – Lt. G.H. Mason

Vol. Co. Seaforth Highlanders – Capt. C.E. Johnstone, Lt. W.C. Reid and 105 men

Vol. Co. Welsh – Capt. R.W. Picton Evans , Lts. G.B. Williams, F.H. Gaskell, and 96 men

Vol. Cheshire – Capt. S. Thornely, Lts. J. Bates, & J. Crofton & 102 men

Vol. Co. R. Warwick – Capt. A.D. Fleming, Lts. G.H. Ducros, & A.P. Smith & 100 men

Vol. Co. Derby – Lts. F.A.C. Wright, T.C. Newbold and 93 men

Middlesex Vol. Engineers – Lt. R.Q. Henriques and 22 men

Indian Staff Corps – Col. C.M. Keighley

1/Liverpool – Maj. S. Wilcocks

I.Y. – Capt. R.J. Few

Civil Vet. Surg. – M.H. Hayes

For Duty on Voyage:

Civil Surgs. – F.E. Walker, H. Baylin,

Nursing Sisters – A.B. Stephenson, & E.N. Bickardyke

Rev. H. Pugh Jones

Due Southampton Apr. 23.

1902

The Gaika left for England July 5 with the following on passage home:

5/R. Fus. – Col. H.B. Weatherall, Maj. F.T.F. Scoones, Capts. E.B. Norton, A.F. Penny, C.M. Hastings, V.J.F. Smith, R.P. Jessel, Lts. P.A. Prescott-Roberts, P.H. Dean, H.A. Drewe-Mercer, J.E. McGwire, L.M. Smith, E.A. Jones, 2/Lts. C.O. Lambert, G.E. Rodwell, J.U. Kelly, A.H. Hopkinson, G. Frend, E.J.E. Cowell, Lt. & Qm. F. Sutton and 569 men.

3/E. Surrey – Maj. J.C. Worthington, Capts. H.D. Lawrence, W.J. Seton, A.J.D. Hay, R.C. Platt, Lts. G. Parnell, G.L. Watson, G.S. Briscoe, C.E. New, H.C. Rees, C.D. Home, A. Montgomery, E.E. Hodgson, F.W.H. Denton, 2/Lt. A.B. Hill, Lt. & Qm. W. Coleman, and 580 men.

Lanarck Vol. Eng. – Lt. J.H. Fleming and 16 men

Middlesex Vol. Eng. – Lt. H.H.S. Marsh and 22 men.

1/Cheshire Vol. Eng. – Lt. J.L. McLean and 19 men

1/Yorks. Vol. Eng. – 23 men

Devon & Somerset Vol. Eng. Lt. G.H. Lake and 23 men

R. Monmouth Mil. Eng. – Maj. C.H. Paynter, Lts. C.F.J. Galloway, K.E. Digby and 94 men

Vol. Co. R. Fus. – Capt. E.G. Mercer, Lt. R.W. Ironside and 31 men

2/Warwick – 2/Lt. C. Burton

I.Y. – Capt. W.R.K. Mainwaring

RAMC – Lt.-Col. E.O. Milward, Capt. G. St. C. Thom

Canadian Med. S.C. – Maj. G. Carleton Jones

Nursing Sisters A. Luscombe, M.M.H. Holloway

Due Southampton July 28

[mhifle]

Hi,

Here is an account of the Work of the Engineers in South Africa from The Times 25 Nov 1901

Mark

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

One learns all the time in this business/ Amazing to think of the government getting round their own laws by sending these men out in small groups. You wonder that they never thought to run the Iraq was that way.

[mhifle]

Hi,

I just came across a Colonel Jennings-Bramly listed by T E Lawrence in Jan 1916 as working with him at the Intelligence Section at GHQ Cairo at the Savoy, who was responsible for Intelligence on Ismailia. Could this be the Colonel Jennings who survived the attack.

There are Medal Cards for: W E Jennings Bramly Egyptian Govt Officals Bimbashi MID LGS 6.7.17 Vol 30169 Page 6772

W Jennings Bramley Esq Sudan Civil Service MID LG 21.6.16 Roll 6190

W E Jennings Col, MD, IMS, British Service MID LG 26.11.18 Page 13907

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Sounds as if it could be Jennings who escaped. I had not really done any work on him as there was little to go in.

At the moment I am chasing family of the five Special Appointment men in the group with Carew. And I am in contact with a grandchild of one of them - amazing how little information filters down the generations

[mhifle]

Hi,

Here are some more details on the Volunteer Engineers

Regards Mark

Volunteer Engineers special service sections made up of 1 subaltern, 1 Sergeant, 1 corporal, and 22 sappers, or 26 of all ranks.

The men were to be enlisted for the regular army for a period of one year or the duration of the war, those taken for the "Waiting companies" being transferred to the reserve until required for service.

The conditions of enlistment were that the men should be not under 20 or more than 35 years of age, 1st class (volunteer) shots, efficient in the years 1898 and 1899, of good character, medically fit, and, by preference, unmarried.

They were to be paid, rationed, clothed, and equipped as soldiers of the regular battalions (though continuing to wear the designation of their volunteer battalions on their shoulder-straps), and were to be granted wound pensions as for the regular army.

On completion of their term of service, they were to be granted £5 as a gratuity, besides any special gratuity issued for the war.

The corps to which the men belonged was to be given a sum of £9 to cover the cost of equipment of each volunteer, and the men were to be borne as supernumerary to their corps and to be considered as " efficients," the corps continuing to draw the full capitation grant for them.

[mhifle]

Hi,

Found this interesting article on the link between the RIC and Palestine Police

Regards Mark

Palestine Police