Tunic on Ebay

[Muerrisch]

Far be it for me with my limited knowledge to question those who know a good thing when they see it, but my collecting is evidence-based, not relying on the old chestnut, oft-repeated, and true, that "soldiers did strange things".

Many of these strange things have photographic evidence: rank chevrons on one arm only, regimental buttons, anomalous cap badges, shoulder titles, together with skill-at-arms, trade, or appointment badges worn on the wrong arm.

I use the doctrine of 'inherent military probability' as a yardstick, particularly when about to spend money.

Be interesting to see what it goes for.

[my latest purchases: four sealed pattern Foot Guards colour badges, all on the original official boards complete with seals.]

[Muerrisch]

Having just looked at the item [and the price!] I have seen the LG Wreath instructor's badge, so assume that was what was meant by qualification in an earlier post.

Just think, somebody out there has said "I shall have that whatever it takes" and slapped a huge stake down and gone off for the week. Never mind, all the disappointed ones are helping him/her get rid of some unwanted spare cash.

[MACRAE]

What a very nice Jacket I am tempted however credit card at melt down stage so will have to leave it . I dare say that this item is going to go for a very very high price.

Dan

[dutchbarge]

I too am mystified by all the extra Hershy bars, and also the reference above to 'qualification'. Can't see any myself.

Pertaining to USA dress......Just a quibble, but 'Hershey Bars' refer to WW2 (to present) overseas service BARS not to WW1 overseas service CHEVRONS. 'Hershey Bars' (each bar denoting 6 months of overseas service) were the same shape (rectangular) and color (originally similar to the paper wrapper) as the famous GI candy bar, thus 'Hershey Bars". In WW1, OS chevrons (each inverted chevron denoting 6 months overseas service) were worn. Both bars and chevrons were originally worn on the lower left sleeve. In 1951 they were moved to the right sleeve. In my youth you could tell a salty old vet by his impressive display of both WW2 OS bars AND WW1 OS chevrons (worn bars over chevrons).

As to what US overseas chevrons (1 1/2 years overseas service) are doing on a British tunic, I can only guess. Perhaps an American volunteer? Many Americans, tired of waiting for Uncle Sam to declare war, went to Canada, joined up and ended up in Canadian AND British units. If my math is correct, he would have been in service overseas a few months before the US entered the war. A little ironic humor perhaps?

Cheers, BIll

[Ghost]

Seller says that there is no name or other prints inside the jacket, strange I would have thought.

Alan

[jscott]

Goodness. GBP862 with over 4 days to go.

[john gregory]

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole: whoever buys it is going to attract a lot of disbelief and sniggers when [if] it is shown off. Are we to assume a sergeant got away with actually wearing this?

I too am mystified by all the extra Hershy bars, and also the reference above to 'qualification'. Can't see any myself.

Could you explain to us all why you would not touch it with a " bargepole "

[Muerrisch]

Sorry about the Hershey bars, spelling and wrong war.

As for 'not touching it with a barge pole', this is, of course, a matter of opinion, just as some people on this thread are convinced it is kosher. Its a free country.

Whereas I have not served in uniform, I had one hanging in the wardrobe, complete with brown gloves, a hat with scrambled egg, and a lot of bars on the sleeve, and spent 41 years of my career cheek-by-jowl with the RAF and Army waiting for WW III and hoping it didn't happen, including a good deal of time on exercise with them. I also have a strong ongoing relationship with six officers of field rank. None of which entitles me to claim that I know anything about the ethos of the Great War, but I do claim to have an understanding of the collective military mind.

1. no soldier, given the chance, will ever voluntarily NOT wear an embellishment to which he is entitled

2. No Adjt, CO, or RSM is ever going to allow anything OUTSIDE the regulations or acknowledged regimental custom and practice [ie sanctioned collective disobedience].

The uniform in question fails to pass the 2. test regarding the weird sewn-on tapey things. Never seen the like in 60 years rapt attention to British uniform, never seen a photo, never seen a description. Always willing to be convinced, just one photo or reference in respectable print will do.

Of a more recent conflict I once handled a para BD or smock [cannot remember which]. It bore every possible distinction and embellishment. No dealer would touch it, it was too good to be true I suppose.

Just a matter of opinion, as I said, but if I had £1000 spare it would be spent on something that didn't keep me awake at night!

[mark holden]

John,

I am not sure that Grumpy needs to explain to anyone why the tunic is not for him we all have our opinions-to each his own. Its a very interesting tunic which I am sure will sell for an extremely high (inflated) price-reflecting the power and madness of ebay.

regards

Mark

[Fogarrach]

My thought re custom & practice is that they have to start somewhere, could it therefore be that such use of wound stripes started as British soldiers came into contact with Americans? A forum member may know?

- If that happened, surely one of the forum members will have contemporary photographic evidence?

- British soldiers copying an American uniform idea? Wouldn't that mean accepting that the American's had had a good idea? - Is that something our WWI soldiers did on other occassions?

That said:

- These days our soldiers seem to find lots of pieces of US kit useful. That's why they obtain it by whatever means whenever they can.

Considering the current item price this discussion has value.

I for one am glad that Grumpy was kind enough to explain his reasons. I shall watch this thread grow and learn from and enjoy the contributions of Grumpy et al.

[o j kirby]

Hi,

Just a wee thought on the "sew on tapey things", I have seen the most horrendous attempts at attaching insignia amongst all ranks in my TA unit...including attempts at gluing on flashes...and the susequent hanging off of said items. Perhaps the task at hand gets more precedence than the fineries of costume!

Owain.

[wainfleet]

Of course Grumpy is entitled to his opinion, we all are, and his is well-expressed but I don’t agree with it. Here’s why I like the tunic.

It is “all of a piece”. Every bit of brass has the same blackened patination, and every bit of cloth insignia has the same grubby look as the jacket material. I’ve yet to see anyone fake that successfully (and plenty of very skilled people have tried), and in any case it is far easier to confect something using clean brasses / cloth, which is what tends to happen. So my opinion is that whatever is on it was there long before it became worthwhile to “make up” WW1 uniforms.

Regarding the “tapey things”, I haven’t seen these before and yes they look weird, but I think they must be right for the “all of a piece” reason. And fakers just don’t produce this kind of thing. They want their work to result in something as commercial as possible, and so they will always make something that is checkable. Likewise the US insignia, which is just an affectation IMO. Prominent oddities like the sign are rare but they did occur, as with the huge “C” worn by the Seaforths? in 1916 which looks even stranger. I guess that this is either an unrecorded battalion sign or some specialist distinction.

This has all the hallmarks of a front line tunic. Even under the grime of ages, you can see that the cloth insignia is well dulled and faded. The service chevrons in particular look to have well been rained and shone on, and the pocket linings are pretty dirty. This isn’t a best tunic, it’s a working one with a real “been there, done it” look.

I don’t usually buy the “found in a shed” argument but I believe it here. Looking at the seller’s feedback, he’s been selling mainly mechanical and agri bits and bobs, the sort of stuff you’d expect in the depths of rural Devon, and there's no history of anything suspect.

So that’s why I am not surprised at the price so far (though I imagine the seller is nearly falling off his chair). Any tunics with divisional and other insignia are rare, and frontline pieces like this are very few and far between.

Regards,

W.

[Gunner Bailey]

Gosh - £920. Do you get the shed as well?

John

[ralphjd]

Somebody obviously desires it. I think the seller is probably lying down in a darkened room.

[tocemma]

Having used up my ration of contentious postings this month, I will confine myself to a few observations on this latest manifestation of ebayity...

37th Division did all manner of 'tapey things'. I have an Officers 'funk jacket' to the same Brigade as this 8th Somerset LI jacket, and it too has 'tapey things' on the sleeve. It also has a 'circley cottony thing' above the 'tapey thing' It does not have the 'Goldeney Horseshoey things'

Ergo 'Tapey things' were worn by this Brigade and Division.

In the case of the Officers jacket (straight from the family, with no sheds involved) they are badly sewn on cotton insignia, worth considering also that this jacket was worn by a Captain and Company Commander. No 'Officers' version then. The use of this tunic pre-dates the introduction of the 'Horseshoe' in February 1918, by which time the Officer concerned was a Major.

Part 2 orders of the 8th Lincolns. Regt. announce the introduction of the horseshoe, and further state that 'supplies of the horseshoe sign are available from the Divisional canteen'

Not as Chappell has asserted, worn after November 1916, but worn, as far as 8th Lincs are concerned (and probably 8th Som LI) from Feb 1918.

Re the wound stripes. As Wainfleet has mentioned, I once owned a jacket of an RFA Sergeant of the 19th Division. As well as having mismatched Divisional signs, it also had a US Officers rank bar, used as a wound stripe. I was never remotely concerned by this, and assumed that it was end of war Demob 'swank' This jacket came from house clearance and I paid £80 for it, so no jiggery-pokery involved.

Re the LG wreath badge with a backing. I've seen this several times, both in the flesh and in photos. Sometimes both sleeves, sometimes just the right. I read no great significance into this.

On the subject of soldiers wearing insignia they have no entitlement to, a WW1 veteran told me that after being wounded, he was sent on a signalling course. Half way through the course he was recalled to his unit as the March 1918 offensive had started. Although he had not passed his course, he acquired a crossed flags badge in GM, that he wore unchallenged until the end of the war. In fact, it is still on his SD jacket, now in the care of his daughter, to this day.

Re the condition. I am not quite so sure as WF that this is anything other than a Demob jacket that has suffered from poor storage conditions. It is this has given it the look of having been through two World Wars. I have had several late war jackets like this, and I note it has a pistol lanyard used for decoration on the left shoulder, that had suffered just as badly and had this same look. I note the felt backed LG badge, the pistol lanyard on the left shoulder and the swanky wound stripes. Looks like a Demob to me.

Re the price it will achieve.....it looks perfectly OK to me and will almost certainly reach a ludicrous figure. Ebay again.

Tocemma

PS one last comment not remotely connected to this ebay jacket, but a warning as to the dangers of using condition as a guide to originality. I once saw an SD jacket heavily encrusted with dirt to an MGC unit. Sometime later I discovered that the dealer concerned was in the habit of leaving items to age on an air-conditioning vent of a large building, where over a period of weeks it would build up a crusty coating of dust.

However, as WF has pointed out, it is a little more difficult to fake the type of genuine aging seen on the ebay item.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Either that or they are taking on all the positives from this thread. What a spectacular find in a garden shed, taken off 90 years ago and put away exactly as it was worn, all the insignia in place, everything equally aged, what a fantastic piece of luck for it to have been found by someone who has identified just what it is and given everyone a chance to own it. Well done.

[Steven Broomfield]

. I once saw an SD jacket heavily encrusted with dirt to an MGC unit. Sometime later I discovered that the dealer concerned was in the habit of leaving items to age on an air-conditioning vent of a large building, where over a period of weeks it would build up a crusty coating of dust.

As long as I can keep my H&S officer occupied, I have a large and very dusty Plant Room open to offers. As a charity, I would expect a reasonable donation. I'll make sure the cash goes to the right place. No cheques or credit crads. Thanks. PM me.

[wesleycrabb]

Hi,

Just a wee thought on the "sew on tapey things", I have seen the most horrendous attempts at attaching insignia amongst all ranks in my TA unit...including attempts at gluing on flashes...and the susequent hanging off of said items. Perhaps the task at hand gets more precedence than the fineries of costume!

Owain.

Hello All.

Just to follow on from Owain, I have come across quite a few Second World War era RAF OR tunics where the birds, bars, etc... had been 'glued' into place prior to sewing, and sometimes instead of. I was also watching some footage last night where a ditched airman was being fished form the sea, and his bars were flapping around, being held to the tunic on just one side, so it appeared, possibly because the glue had dissolved in the sea water. This was, after all, working dress, not being thought of as a future collectable item.

Best Regards

Toodleoo

Wes.

[tocemma]

Sort of off topic, but relevant,

The Chairman, of a sadly soon to be disbanded WW2 veterans association, tells me that he used to sew on the Brigade bars for his less dextrous comrades of 1st Worcesters, in 43rd Wessex Division, during the NW Europe campaign. He used to charge 6d a sleeve. Apparenty it was a b~gger not only to keep the bars parallel, but also to stop the whole shooting match ending at the elbow, and consequently not at the prescribed distance from the shoulder seam. (for the record the badges were 'Worcesters' title, Wessex 'Wyvern', three red Brigade bars, Worcesters Regimental flash bar, and stripes if you were 'insignia challenged')

He described it as 'a nice little earner'

Tocemma

PS below a Sergeant of the Yorkshire Regiment. Clearly post war as shown by the ribbons of the BWM and Victory Medal. Note the continued late use of the 'York' woven slip on title sewn to his upper sleeve, Regimental buttons, and the LG wreath badge in the crook of the stripes. On the original print it seems there is a backing to this badge, possibly green cloth. No OS chevrons.

[tocemma]

This Glosters tunic I once owned had also been hanging in a garden shed and looked almost as 'bad' as the ebay item. This was the result of several good brushings. The blackened buttons were not polished but cleaned with a 'brass' brush, the sort of thing used to clean suede shoes. The rubber side of brush was also used on the buttons and stopped them from looking burnished. This does have to be done carefully though.

Surprising what a bit of elbow grease can achieve. The tunic in the photos was heavily mothed in places. The insignia is a post war Army of Occupation scheme. I can't recall the exact Battalion off the top of my head, but I think it was one of the Graduated Battalions. apologies for the poor pre-digital pictures.

Tocemma

Note the odd mismatched lopsided darts under the collar either side of the rifle patches. If we were discussing this one, no doubt someone would point out that it had been tampered with! Just poor making up or machining by the looks of it.

[wainfleet]

TE

That is a remarkable transformation. Impossible to tell how the SLI one would come up without seeing it close-to. Perhaps if the eventual winner is a GWF member and not too embarrassed to admit having paid £XXXX, they will let us know how it turns out.

My thoughts about this being a "front line piece" were based not on the overall condition but the fading of, in particular, the service chevrons. Only a guess of course without solid provenance. Whatever it is, it's a lot more appealing than a squeaky clean tunic. All part of buying into the imaginary time machine!

Cheers,

W.

[john gregory]

Having used up my ration of contentious postings this month, I will confine myself to a few observations on this latest manifestation of ebayity...

37th Division did all manner of 'tapey things'. I have an Officers 'funk jacket' to the same Brigade as this 8th Somerset LI jacket, and it too has 'tapey things' on the sleeve. It also has a 'circley cottony thing' above the 'tapey thing' It does not have the 'Goldeney Horseshoey things'

Ergo 'Tapey things' were worn by this Brigade and Division.

In the case of the Officers jacket (straight from the family, with no sheds involved) they are badly sewn on cotton insignia, worth considering also that this jacket was worn by a Captain and Company Commander. No 'Officers' version then. The use of this tunic pre-dates the introduction of the 'Horseshoe' in February 1918, by which time the Officer concerned was a Major.

Part 2 orders of the 8th Lincolns. Regt. announce the introduction of the horseshoe, and further state that 'supplies of the horseshoe sign are available from the Divisional canteen'

Not as Chappell has asserted, worn after November 1916, but worn, as far as 8th Lincs are concerned (and probably 8th Som LI) from Feb 1918.

Re the wound stripes. As Wainfleet has mentioned, I once owned a jacket of an RFA Sergeant of the 19th Division. As well as having mismatched Divisional signs, it also had a US Officers rank bar, used as a wound stripe. I was never remotely concerned by this, and assumed that it was end of war Demob 'swank' This jacket came from house clearance and I paid £80 for it, so no jiggery-pokery involved.

Re the LG wreath badge with a backing. I've seen this several times, both in the flesh and in photos. Sometimes both sleeves, sometimes just the right. I read no great significance into this.

On the subject of soldiers wearing insignia they have no entitlement to, a WW1 veteran told me that after being wounded, he was sent on a signalling course. Half way through the course he was recalled to his unit as the March 1918 offensive had started. Although he had not passed his course, he acquired a crossed flags badge in GM, that he wore unchallenged until the end of the war. In fact, it is still on his SD jacket, now in the care of his daughter, to this day.

Re the condition. I am not quite so sure as WF that this is anything other than a Demob jacket that has suffered from poor storage conditions. It is this has given it the look of having been through two World Wars. I have had several late war jackets like this, and I note it has a pistol lanyard used for decoration on the left shoulder, that had suffered just as badly and had this same look. I note the felt backed LG badge, the pistol lanyard on the left shoulder and the swanky wound stripes. Looks like a Demob to me.

Re the price it will achieve.....it looks perfectly OK to me and will almost certainly reach a ludicrous figure. Ebay again.

Tocemma

PS one last comment not remotely connected to this ebay jacket, but a warning as to the dangers of using condition as a guide to originality. I once saw an SD jacket heavily encrusted with dirt to an MGC unit. Sometime later I discovered that the dealer concerned was in the habit of leaving items to age on an air-conditioning vent of a large building, where over a period of weeks it would build up a crusty coating of dust.

However, as WF has pointed out, it is a little more difficult to fake the type of genuine aging seen on the ebay item.

Well said Paul and Wainfleet,

[Krithia]

This is a super tunic which I would agree with Tocemma that it is probably demob. It would be nice to see it in the 'flesh' as I hope the eventual winner doesn't find out that 90 years of shed dirt is holding it together. Nethertheless its still cheap at half the price, a real beaut !

[trenchtrotter]

£1,150 now!

TT

[high wood]

Is it likely that the original owner of this tunic could be identified? There cannot have been that many sergeants in the 8th battalion, Somerset Light Infantry with the Military Medal. We could surely find a few candidates.