M.I.C's

[roughdiamond]

Regularly on here I see the statement "There is no M.I.C for his so he can't have served abroad", is this 100%?

Would someone have to serve abroad to receive the War and Victory medals? Would service in Ireland only qualify someone? Finally was the eligibility for the War and Victory upto 11/11/1918 or until Germany officially surrendered in 1919?

Sam

[River97]

Sam,

The link here will provide some of the answers. Here is another link to the Long, Long Trail.

Cheers Andy.

[Chris_Baker]

To receive the War and Victory Medals it was necessary not only to be overseas but to be in a theatre of war.

Ireland was home and consequently service there did not qualify a man for any campaign medal.

[ulsterlad2]

It was also possible to get the BWM on its own. Leaving your native shore was the qualifier and you didn't have to enter a war theatre for this single medal. This probably applies in the vast majority of cases to soldiers from around the Empire. As Ireland & Great Britain was The United Kingdom, leaving one for the other didn't count as you weren't going anywhere.

[janecavell]

May I ask a couple of supplementary questions?

(1) Are the medal rolls a list of all those entitled to the medals, or only all those who claimed them?

(2) Do we know roughly what proportion of those serving are represented in the medal rolls?

Please excuse my ignorance for asking such basic questions.

Jane

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Regularly on here I see the statement "There is no M.I.C for his so he can't have served abroad", is this 100%?Sam

Sam - No.

As well as mics which are hard or impossible to identify because of spelling errors and other mistakes and omissions there are also cards which simply arent there. They may have existed at some time, but not when the series was filmed for the PRO.

You also have the officers who never applied for their medals, so (normally) no mic. Etc.

Irish service didnt qualify. Last qualification date was (effectively) 11/11/18, but there were then exceptions for later service in Russia and some other areas post Armistice.

Tom

[headgardener]

As far as the whole "no MIC, therefore no overseas service" debate is concerned, some MIC's are definately missing; I have a BW&VM pair to a Private in the Queens who was KIA in 1916 or 17, can't remember details off the top of my head (Thomas John Bloxham, if my memory serves me right) and he's on the medal roll, but no MIC. At first I assumed that it had just been mis-filed, but I tried searching after they were digitized (variations of his name, regimental No, etc), and nothing. So theoretically, according to the "no MIC" rule, he didn't serve abroad.

[roughdiamond]

The reason I ask is because my Grandfather S/23445 Pte Patrick Daly Gordon Highlanders, is listed in a book commemorating those who served from the town of Coatbridge, Lanarkshire as being 3rd Bn, the Gordon's training Bn which never left the UK, yet he has a MIC for the BWM and Victory Medal.

I was told by the curator of the Gordon's museum that his number seemed to be from early 1918. Would the number on his MIC be the same as the one he was initially issued when he joined the 3rd Bn for training? I know he was trained by the Gordons as he is wearing their uniform in his "pass out" photo.

I have the initial Medal Roll No from his MIC, it's been lined through as they were unclaimed, there is then a new Medal Roll number as they were re-issued, would the initial roll reference still be there just lined through? I may put a request on the "look ups" forum to see if some kind person could have a look the next time they're in Kew.

Sam

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

............................ I have the initial Medal Roll No from his MIC, it's been lined through as they were unclaimed, there is then a new Medal Roll number as they were re-issued, ...........

Sam

Sam - The medals were not "unclaimed". Other Ranks medals were issued automatically by post, - they were most likely undeliverable due to change of address, or similar. The mic probably has "RV" and "IV" notations with dates - ?

You need to see the medal roll.

Tom

[centurion]

You could qualify by spending a day in France, I've seen an example of a conducting officer who qualified by taking a party over to Ee tapps (Etaples) and going straight back to England by the next train and boat. It's always seemed unfair that he should qualify and a coastal gunner waiting for a German battle cruiser to bombard him should not.

[roughdiamond]

Sam - The medals were not "unclaimed". Other Ranks medals were issued automatically by post, - they were most likely undeliverable due to change of address, or similar. The mic probably has "RV" and "IV" notations with dates - ?

You need to see the medal roll.

Tom

You're right Tom, hopefully it'll give me a clue, as I've posted on here before, the family rumour is Old Paddy deserted to join the IRA (he was 1st generation Scots) to fight the "Black and Tans", it was also reckoned he did it before being posted abroad, which the MIC proves is bogus, I'm also well aware the "Black and Tans" didn't exist in 1918, maybe he did desert but not for the reasons above, but simply deserted, my Dads Aunt told him she used to hide him in her loft when the Police were looking for him, so there is some truth there, and it'd explain why he never received his medals 1st time round.

Hopefully if I make a request on the look ups forum someone will get something from the Rolls as his records don't exist.

Sam

[Tyneside Chinaman]

"t was also possible to get the BWM on its own. Leaving your native shore was the qualifier and you didn't have to enter a war theatre for this single medal. This probably applies in the vast majority of cases to soldiers from around the Empire. As Ireland & Great Britain was The United Kingdom, leaving one for the other didn't count as you weren't going anywhere."

Not so men of 18/DLI the Durham Pals who were under fire at Hartlepool but did not serve overseas were awarded the British War Medal. from memory I think around 20 men received the medal about six of them being KiA in Dec 1914.

I presume gunners of the Durham RGA would alsop have quailified if they didn't go over seas.

Regards

John

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

...................... simply deserted, my Dads Aunt told him she used to hide him in her loft when the Police were looking for him, so there is some truth there, and it'd explain why he never received his medals 1st time round.................

Sam

There wouldnt have been a second time round.

Story is very unlikely.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

......................... Not so men of 18/DLI the Durham Pals who were under fire at Hartlepool but did not serve overseas were awarded the British War Medal. from memory I think around 20 men received the medal about six of them being KiA in Dec 1914.

John

That's very interesting news. What were their names and numbers ?

Tom

[PPCLI]

S/23445 Pte Patrick Daly Gordon Highlanders....

I was told by the curator of the Gordon's museum that his number seemed to be from early 1918.

Hi Sam,

The number certainly dates from very late 1917 or early 1918 - see Paul Dixon's numbering blog. Paul is a member of this forum and so may be able to reply with a more accurate issue date for S/23445.

Men with similar numbers who died served with the 1/7th Gordons. The man with the closest number where additional details can be gleaned online is S/23441 James Graham Ritchie, 1/7th Bn., killed 23 Jul 1918. His will is held at the National Archives of Scotland and the associated date (usually date of writing) is given as 5 April 1918. Quite often men wrote their wills soon after disembarkation or shortly before going up to the firing line for the first time; so this may be an indication of when your grandfather arrived in France.

Best wishes,

Stuart

[roughdiamond]

Thanks Stuart, it looks like he and probably my Pappy were amongst the troops rushed to France during the German Spring offensive then.

Sam

[corisande]

the family rumour is Old Paddy deserted to join the IRA (he was 1st generation Scots) to fight the "Black and Tans", it was also reckoned he did it before being posted abroad, which the MIC proves is bogus, I'm also well aware the "Black and Tans" didn't exist in 1918

As you imply, the rumour looks a bit spongy. Basically there was no real fighting till Easter 1916, enough to have made a Scots desert to join in.

However there is a window where he could have been there after Easter 1916 and before you can pick him up in the army again.

If you know which county the family came from in Ireland, he undoubtedly would have joined the IRA there (if he joined). Records exist of members if you have those details. Try a post on the appropriate Rootschat board. I have found some of them are very knowledgeable.

[roughdiamond]

Corisande

I was thinking more he may have deserted post war, I don't know if any Gordons Bn's were posted in Ireland 1919/20, I suppose there's also the chance he could have gone after discharge from the Army.

Paddy's Dad, my Gt Grandfather was from Ballynashee near Geevah in Sligo and his Brother and family still lived there (still live nearby actually), so if he went anywhere it'd have been there, I believe Sligo was one of the last IRA strongholds to be brought under the control of the "Free State" during the Civil War.

Got the last bit of info out of my Dad earlier, again from an Aunt when he was younger (he's now 78) She told him that Paddy "had to get out of Ireland in a hurry", again could be a shaggy Dog story from his Aunt, the fact she also talked about hiding him in the loft adds to the story though.

Anyway, any guidance on those "rootschat" sites you were talking about?

[centurion]

If all the stories of people hiding in lofts from :- The British, the Black and Tans, The Free State, the IRA etc etc are true then most of the population of Ireland seems to have spent part of their life in a loft.

I spent my early childhood in Ballysummahan in County Sligo (on my uncle's farm whilst my father was posted abroad) and have had relatives living there until comparatively recently (until my uncle died). Never heard about it being the last IRA stronghold before!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

................. Not so men of 18/DLI the Durham Pals who were under fire at Hartlepool but did not serve overseas were awarded the British War Medal. .............. I presume gunners of the Durham RGA would alsop have quailified if they didn't go over seas.

Any news on the names and service numbers of any of these men ?

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Any news on the names and service numbers of any of these men ?

Tom

Any news on the identity of a single one of these men who are claimed to have been awarded BWMs without ever leaving the UK ?

[SteveE]

Any news on the identity of a single one of these men who are claimed to have been awarded BWMs without ever leaving the UK ?

Tom

Try the first casualty. 18/295 Private Theophilus Jones, died 16/12/1914 and buried in Hartlepool (Stranton) Cemetery.

Medal Index Card shows entitlement to BWM only, reference O/1/103 A2 Page 44.

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

Also...

18/707 Private Charles S. Clarke, died 16/12/1914, buried Hartlepool (Stranton) Cemetery. Again MIC shows entitlement to BWM only with reference O/1/103 A2 Page 47. MIC is annotated KIA at West Hartlepool.

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

18/295 Theophilus Jones' record has survived to some extent and is available on Ancestry. It shows 75 days service at Home, he attested at West Hartlepool 03/10/1914 and was killed 16/12/1914.

18/707 Charles Stephen Clarke's record has also survived. His shows 77 days service at Home, attesting on 01/0/1914 and killed 16/12/1914.

Both British War Medals were issued under Authy. W.O. Letter (A.G.10) NW/9/2710 d/ 27/2/22.

I suspect that the following Medal Roll may well show more such men.....

WO 329/1631 Durham Light Infantry other ranks; Medal Rolls O/1/103B47; O/1/103B48; O/1/103B49; O/1/103B50; O/1/103B51; Pages 9181-9316. O/1/103A; O/1/103A1; O/1/103A2; O/1/103A3; Pages 1A-55A. O/1/104B; O/1/104B1; O/1/104B2; O/1/104B3; Pages 1-111. O/1/104A. Pages 1A-4A. [1914-1920]

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

A few more men, again entitled to BWM only and all casualties on 16/12/1914...

18/107 A/Cpl. Alix Oliffe Liddle, BWM Ref: O/1/103 A2 Page 44. Darlington West Cemetery.

18/369 Pte. Walter Rogers, BWM Ref: O/1/103 A2 Page 45. Bishop Auckland Cemetery.

84 days service at Home, 24/09/1914 to 16/12/1914.

18/398 Pte. Leslie Dobson Turner, BWM Ref: O/1/103 A2 Page 45. Winlaton (St. Patrick) Churchyard and Hookergate Cemetery.

87 days service at Home, 21/09/1914 to 16/12/1914.

All three MICs are annotated K in A West Hartlepool 16/12/1914.

John's presumption that the Durham RGA Gunners would also qualify for the BWM only is also borne out by a couple of casualties on 16/12/1914...

5693 Gnr. William Stephen Houston, BWM Ref: RGA/102 A (TF) Page 70. Hartlepool West View Cemetery.

134 days embodied service at Home, 05/08/1914 to 16/12/1914.

5428 Gnr. Robert Spence, BWM Ref: RGA/102 A (TF) Page 72. Hartlepool West View Cemetery.

3 years 307 days service of which 134 days embodied service at Home, 13/02/1911 to 16/12/1914 (embodied 05/08/1914 to 16/12/1914).

Regards

Steve