Sinking of the MFA ERMINE August 1917

[clive_hughes]

I have just received copies of a 5-page letter written in 1919 by a survivor describing the sinking of the MFA "ERMINE" in the Aegean on 2 August 1917. It's an interesting and moving account of an incident which I don't think is covered by previous topics, and which raises some questions which I'd like answers to (if there are any).

The writer was David Jamieson, a mercantile marine crew member possibly from the Glasgow area (it's where he wrote from in 1919) and addressed to the parents of an RNVR casualty.

He starts by saying that the ERMINE was a new steamer which plied between Glasgow and Dublin in pre-war days, carrying 300 saloon passengers and 700 cattle. He seems to have been with her then or at least from the start of the war, when she was used as a troopship to France; then recommissioned for service at Mudros and the Suvla Bay landings. After that he says she was employed carrying troops into Salonika, and casualties away from there (says she logged in all about 200,000 military passengers and 3000 horses).

At the start of August 1917 she came from Salonika harbour to Stavros , near the mouth of the Struma River. Leaving there at midnight on 1/2 Aug., at 12:55am there was an explosion ("she was struck in the forward stoke hold") and she sank in two and a half minutes. Most of the crew were in bed, and they had to dash for the boats. The two port side boats which most rushed to couldn't get away because of the tide and suction, and went under with the loss of 60 men.

"Your son John was in one of them. I ran past him over to the Starboard side, he was standing in his night dress. We got three boats away, their were 7 in my boat 3 in the next and 5 in the after end of the ship's boat. John came up all right and was hanging on to a bit of wreckage, and our boat was making for him, but in the delay, with the wreckage there was so much he sank before we got to [him] half a minute more and he would have [been] saved."

The crew was apparently 56 men plus 30 sailors and soldiers in transit. The Chief Officer allegedly lost his life by going back into his room near the boat for a gold watch. The third engineer refused to board a boat and went down "quite cool". The crew losses he enumerates as: the carpenter, their son (an RNVR telegraphist), 8 firemen, 3 sailors, 3 greasers, 2 stewards - 20 altogether. Separately he mentions a warrant gunner (going home to be married), a merchant seaman en route to jail in Malta, and a wireless operator. There was also a Fleet Surgeon going home on leave from a battleship, whose hearty farewell had left him "in a jolly mood" and he went straight to bed from which he never again stirred.

All but 15 hands ended in the water, and these rescued 60 more. It took them 4 hours to make their way back to Stavros, despite firing 40 signal rockets "But the smart navy people didn't know what they were for."

Jamieson had never sailed since, going to work in the shipyards "and don't intend to sail any more...If you care to write to me I will let you know what some of the Wives and mothers got for compensation and the struggle we had to get our wages".

Does this letter in general match what is known of the facts of the sinking? The statements that 60 men went down and that 60 were rescued seem either a little too neat or possibly a duplication? Also, was the ship the victim of a mine or a torpedo (the CWGC state it was "in action with a submarine", but elsewhere I think a mine is blamed)?

Looking forward to your responses.

LST_164

[Michael Lowrey]

The basics are here: http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/2001.html And yes, Ermine sank on a mine.

Best wishes,

Michael

[KevinBattle]

So far Geoff's has found 20 casualties, including John Parry RNVR.

001 BAYES AG 884591 MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

002 CROSS T 67070 MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

003 EDGAR R - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

004 GOWAN J - SS ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE

005 JOHNSON WC 882032 MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

006 KERR J 748372 MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

007 MACDONALD N - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

008 MCCALLUM H - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

009 MCCALLUM H - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

010 MCLAUCHLAN W - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

011 MCNAB F - HM FLEET MESSENGER ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE

012 MOORE D - HM FLEET MESSENGER ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE

013 MUIR D - HM FLEET MESSENGER ERMINE 02/08/1917 ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE

014 PARRY J MERSEY Z/541 MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 ROYAL NAVAL VOLUNTEER RESERVE

015 ROBSON J - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

016 TALLANT H 2280U MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE

017 TAYLOR H - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

018 THOMSON JM - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

019 THURLOW J - HM FLEET MESSENGER, SS ERMINE 02/08/1917 MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE

020 TOULMIN SN - MFA ERMINE 02/08/1917 ROYAL NAVY

The McCallums are not brothers (cousins?). Thomson was the 3rd Engineer "who went down quite cool" and Toulmin was the Surgeon

The bodies of Gowan, MacNab and Moore were buried at Mikra British Cemetery and Muir is commemorated on the Chatham Naval Memorial, all others on Plymouth Naval Memorial.

Edit: Also found a Casualty List, with 23 crew shown on Naval History net Ermine:-

Ermine, fleet messenger, mined and sunk in Aegean Sea

BAYES, Albert G, Trimmer, MMR, 884591

CARD, Thomas P L, Gunner (Abercrombie, monitor, O/P)

CROSS, Thomas, Donkeyman, MMR, 67070

EDGAR, Robert, Greaser, MMR, (no service number listed)

GOWAN, John, Carpenter, MMR, (no service number listed)

JOHNSON, William C, Fireman, MMR, 882032

KERR, John, Trimmer, MMR, 748372

MACCALLUM, Hector, Seaman, MMR, (no service number listed)

MACDONALD, Norman, Seaman, MMR, (no service number listed)

MCCALLUM, Hugh, Seaman, MMR, (no service number listed)

MCLAUCHLAN, William, Fireman, MMR, (no service number listed)

MCNAB, Frederick, 2nd Steward, MMR, (no service number listed)

MOORE, David, Fireman, MMR, (no service number listed)

MUIR, David, Ty/Sub Lieutenant, RNR

O’DONNELL, Edward, Greaser, MMR, 741282

PARRY, John, Telegraphist, RNVR, Mersey Z 541

ROBSON, John, Fireman, MMR, (no service number listed)

SHARPE, Charles, Boy 1c, J 54193, (St George, submarine depot ship, O/P)

TALLANT, Hugh, Stoker, RNR, U 2280

TAYLOR, Hugh, Greaser, MMR, (no service number listed)

THOMSON, John, 3rd Engineer, MMR, (no service number listed)

THURLOW, John, Assistant Cook, MMR, (no service number listed)

TOULMIN, Stewart N, Ty/Surgeon

[clive_hughes]

Michael and Kevin,

many thanks indeed for those useful and informative responses.

LST_164

[Michael Johnson]

There are two David Jamiesons listed in the National Archives Merchant Seamen Medal Cards: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

One, born 1875, was born in Glasgow. (The other was South Shields).

[clive_hughes]

If it were him, it would make him forty-odd years old at the time, but I've come across far older Merchant Navy casualties (65 is the oldest Anglesey MN fatality).

More to the point given the unit attributions in the casualty lists, is it likely he was in the MMR rather than the MN? And if so, would he have had the Mercantile Marine War Medal/BWM or a 1914-15 Trio?

LST_164

[dvr66gr]

Hello everybody from Greece!
The wreck of MFA Ermine was located and identified this October by a team of Greek technical divers .
I was among them. The ship is in excellent conditon with the masts and funnel still in place, all boat
davits turned towards the sea. The wreck lies at 63 meters .

[Kath]

Thank you dvr66gr.

Welcome to the GWF.

Very good of you to post this.

Kath.

[clive_hughes]

Yes, thanks for posting those images - it's good to know that the wreck has been located.

Clive

[Guest hood19]

The two MacCullum's listed as casualties were cousins, Hector (aged 30) MacCullum and Hugh. Both came from Kintra on the Isle of Mull, Argyllshire. I have Hector's 1914-15 Star trio and Death Plaque, the medals being named to : H.MacCullum, Smn. MFA. No Service Number appears on any of the medals.

[clive_hughes]

Thank you for that additional information hood19

Clive

[DE51]

My ancestor was Robert Edgar, one of the greasers who went down with the Ermine. He was born in Ireland but moved to Scotland c1900. Great to see that the ship has been located, and to see the photos - thanks for posting these. Also great to get a bit more info about the sinking.

The Ermine was built on the Clyde in 1912. It was used on the Glasgow-Dublin mail run, but also used as a cruise ship for 10 day cruises to Iceland. It was requisitioned by the Admiralty in August 1914. Pic attached

Couple of questions, if anyone can help.

Robert was on a T124Z agreement - I know the T124 thing is to do with being under naval discipline but with being a Z and not an X does that mean it's likely that he was on the Ermine right from the start when it was taken over for the war?

Who would have being paying his wages - his company or the government? And would his widow have received any compensation from the government?

Thanks

Doreen

[ernest james]

Hi Doreen

I think that the Ermine (Official Number 133068) was requisitioned by the Admiralty at the end of July 1915

I checked the 1915 crewlist project and there are crewlist details available for Ermine from 1 Jan to the end of July 1915.

http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/209183

I reckon that Robert Edgar was a member of the crew for all that period but his surname has been mistranscribed as EAGAN.

It appears as if most of the crew stayed with the ship when she was requistioned.

The T.124Z articles applied to seamen who signed on for the period of the war and were transferable from ship to ship. They were paid 10 shillings/month more than men who had signed the T.124 articles for seamen who were not transferable from ship to ship. Wages were paid by the Admiralty.

His widow should have been paid one third of his pay (minimum 10 shillings per week) There was also additional payment for up to four children until the age of 16. (minimum 2/6 each child per week). The pension stopped if the widow remarried.

best wishes

ernestjames

[DE51]

Thanks very much for that info Ernest - really helpful. Yes, that is my Robert Edgar - the details are correct and I also checked the digitised copies. On a couple of the signatures it does look like Eagan but on others it is clearly Edgar.

There is a card index for Clyde shipping in Glasgow City Archives. On the back of the card for the Ermine it states "8.1914 Admiralty; 1917 sunk in Mediterranean by sub." I also read in the Archives that she transported the staff of the Commander of the British Expeditionary Force to France. That ties in with the OP's comments that she was initially used as a troopship to France prior to being recommissioned for further service.

I also have in my notes that she was actively involved in the Gallipoli campaign, and was the final vessel to leave at the evacuation carrying the last of the staff in charge of the operation.

Robert's widow outlived him by 40 years and never remarried, so presumably she would have received the pension for her lifetime.

Thanks once again for your help Ernest - much appreciated.

kind regards

Doreen

[ernest james]

Doreen

I'm glad that we agree that its your Robert Edgar on the digitised copies.

I think it might be worthwhile if you have a close look at the 11 digitised copies because it appears to me that the Ermine was still on the Glasgow to Dublin run between January and July 1915 and controlled by Clyde shipping.

The digital copying methodology appears to me to be a bit haphazard and I think that 2 front covers for an Eng 6 booklet similar to copy 1/11 have not been copied.

I suspect that 3 Eng 6 booklets were copied in the following chronological order. Each booklet was used for a 6 month period.

First Eng 6 booklet commencing 1 Jan 1915: copy numbers 7, 8, 9, 10 . front cover not copied. Booklet full up before end of 6 months.

Second Eng 6 booklet commencing when first booklet filled: copy numbers 11, 2, 3. front cover not copied. completed up to 30 June 1915.

Third Eng 6 booklet commencing 1 July 1915: copy numbers 1 (front cover), 4,5 and 6.

I also checked on when Ermine arrived in the Aegean.

http://www.historicalrfa.org/requisitioned-auxiliaries/164-requisitioned-auxiliaries-e/1494-requisitioned-auxiliary-ermine

It looks like we are agreed on the Ermine's movements from August 1915.

I hope this helps you.

best wishes

ernestjames

[DE51]

Hi Ernest

Yes, the digital copying is certainly a bit haphazard and difficult to follow! So thanks for the explanation of the page numbering - your interpretation makes sense.

kind regards

Doreen

[ernest james]

Hi Doreen

I would like to know your interpretation of the 1915 Ermine crew lists once you have had a chance to look at the 11 copies.

best wishes

ernestjames

[DE51]

Hi Ernest

Don't find it that easy to follow between the pages being mixed up and the various discharge dates for different seamen. Surprised that so many of the crew signed up in Belfast on 1st January since the ship was based in Glasgow - presumably that's because it was a new year and the ship happened to be in Belfast on that day.

Looks like the ship was not too far from home in the first half of the year. I assume that she had been returned to her owners once no longer required for conveying troops to France, before being recommissioned for service in the Dardanelles campaign.

regards

Doreen

[ernest james]

Hi Doreen

The way the system worked is that on home trade ships every member of the crew had to sign on twice a year on 1st January and 1st July. This rule applied even if the man's service was a continuation.

On January 1st the ship was in Belfast, as you note, and 42 men signed on that day. Most of the men who signed on after that joined in Glasgow but two signed on in Dublin on 10th March which made me think that the ship was trading across the Irish Sea.

On July 1st the ship was in Glasgow and 45 men signed on. It appears that she was taken over by the Admiralty in late July when the record ends.

If you want to check on what the ship was doing between August and December 1914 then the crew list is available in the maritime history archive in Newfoundland.

https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=133068

I hope this helps you.

best wishes

ernestjames

[DE51]

Hi Ernest

Thanks for that. I've had a look at the Newfoundland site - could work out costing quite a bit depending upon how many pages there are in the list and what size the pages are - that would come on top of the minimum search fee which is around 20 pounds. Presumably "if" the ship was taken over by the Admiralty in August 1914 then the crew list won't contain any info on the ship's whereabouts in the period that I'm looking for. As in 1915, the record would just end when the ship is requisitioned.

Will maybe drop them an email after the holiday period is over and see if I can wheedle any info out of them as to whether the crew list for 1914 actually covers the entire year - probably not, but it's worth a try lol

kind regards

Doreen

[ernest james]

Hi Doreen

let me know how you get on with Newfoundland.

best wishes

ernestjames

[Guest]

Hi one of my great uncle was on this ship William McLauchlan a fireman he went down with the ship. Can someone tell me if there widows got medals for them and which ones they would have received. Thank you,  Angela

Edited 3 December , 2019 by Guest

[seaJane]

1 hour ago, angela anderson said:

William McLauchlan a fireman

Hi Angela,

 

I have found your great-uncle William on the CWGC website https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3043936/mclauchlan,-william/ .

 

Do you have his year of birth to distinguish him from the other men with the same name in The National Archives Discovery catalogue?

 

seaJane

[Guest]

Hi seajane his date of birth 18 November 1879. thank you for your help.

[seaJane]

31 minutes ago, angela anderson said:

Hi seajane his date of birth 18 November 1879. thank you for your help.

Not as much help as I'd hoped, unfortunately, as I cannot find him with that year of birth! I'll investigate a few other routes and see what I can discover.

 

Edit: Though, to answer your main question, I'm fairly sure the medals would been sent to his widow. I was hoping to find written evidence from his service record or the Mercantile Marine Medal Roll.

 

 

Edited 4 December , 2019 by seaJane