Irishmen in WW1

[curranl]

Hello All,

Forgotten, I hasten to add, by their own country!! I have recently come to the Forum and recieved much assistance from other members in researching the military service of my grand uncle, Mick Curran, 6th Royal Irish Rifles.

One thing that has struck me was the poor recognition these men have recieved in their homeland. Depending on whose figures you take, somewhere in the region of 300,000 Irishmen served and 50,000 were killed in action. All these men were volunteers - conscription was not introduced here. They fought in every theatre and branch of the services.

Yet they seem to have been practically airbrushed out of official Irish history. It is only in recent years that any official acknowledgement of their bravery has been made and even that was pretty fleeting. Kevin Myers in the Irish Times flies the flag every now and then, but other than his, few voices are heard. I learned very little of them in school, whereas the Easter 1916 Rising, War of Independence and Civil War were all common topics.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that they are any more worthy of remembrance than their English, Scots or Welsh counterparts (or come to that German or Turkish counterparts!!) but surely they are worthy of official recognition. It is clear from the Forum that English, Welsh and Scottish men are remembered and commerated and the same is true up North in Des's area. By contrast I have never heard of a local commeration.

I know there are a few forum members from the Republic - what do they think?

Regards,

Liam.

P.S. Irishmen are the second most numerous winners of V.C.s!!

[Viola]

Hi,

I'm not sure how forgotten they are. I have seen memorials in Irish towns, like Waterford, some in relation to particular soldiers, others more general.

Also, near Mesen, there is the Island of Ireland Peace Park, which (as far as I know) is maintained by young volunteers from Ireland.

I suppose the reason it appears that they are forgotten, is that there was rather a lot going on 'at home' at that stage, which the history books tend to concentrate on. (That said, there are at least two books that I spotted in my very small local library dealing with Irish soliders during the Great War - one of which is sitting on my desk at the moment!)

-- Viola

[awakefield]

Liam

It is true that until recently little was done to commemorate or study the contribution of southern Irish soldiers to WWI. This I fell is something like the situation in Eastern Europe prior to the collapse of Communism - any 'official' study was generally negative and only now can Russians, Czechs, Poles, Hungarians etc openly look into WWI subjects. Now in Eire a number of old regimental associations have reformed - Royal Dublin Fusiliers Association, Connaught Rangers Association and the Leinster Regiment Association. I am due to speak to the RDF Assoc in November with regard to the 10th Division's time in the Serbian Mountains during the winter of 1915, something the 6th RIR were involved in. Additionally, in the Salonika Campaign Society, of which I am currently Chairman, we have a number of members with family ties to the 10th Division.

ALAN

[DirtyDick]

I suppose during the emotional and political tumult of the 1916-21 period, Irishmen volunteering to serve for the Crown would not have been favourites of many leading Republics and their rhetoric naturally permeated throughout swathes of Irish society. At the extreme end, it could have been viewed as treachery (i.e. in aiding the war effort of the colonial power), compounded since they volunteered (the Church's appeals to help Catholic Belgium notwithstanding); and at the other it would fall by the wayside as concentration centred on forming the new nation.

I'm no expert on the Irish Defence Forces, but to this day their uniforms and rank structures seem purposefully and decidedly distinct from those of other ex-colonies who have retained a far larger degree of British Army influence: no doubt a simple and tangible reflection of the need to distance themselves from their British-dominated past. Even when the Irish Army Staff talked - in a very limited manner - with the British Army (among others) in the 70s and 80s on several areas concerning security vis-a-vis the then European situation and domestic problems in NI, the limited co-operation was pointedly low key.

Richard

[museumtom]

I totally agree with you. It is a great thing to see the occasional poppy being worn here nowadays, in the past you would have been ostracised for such a thing. In the memorial garden of the Museum there is a section specifically for Thurles men who died in ww1 in the British Army.

Tom Burnell in Tipperary.

[Stephen Nulty]

It must also be remembered that many Irish Nationalists fought aginst the Central Powers.

Probably the most famous of these was Thomas Kettle, a leading Poet and Journalist. He joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers when Belgium was attacked, commenting that he wasn't fighting for the Crown but for small nations everywhere.

Lieutenant Kettle was killed on 9th September 1916 leading an attack on the German support trenches at Ginchy. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

One of Lt. Kettle's men, killed in the same attack, was my great-Uncle, Private James Nulty.

Stephen

[curranl]

Alan,

Do you have a date and venue for your talk and could I attend? And some details of the Salonika group?

Regards,

Liam.

[trooper]

Alan

I would also be interested in attending your talk. You might have seen from some of my earlier postings I am currently researching for a PhD on the 10th (Irish) Division so I would be interested to hear from any of you members who might be willing to assist by providing personal details of relatives who served.

If anyone is interested I have for the literature review section of my thesis read quite a number of books on the 10th (Irish) Division and will send anyone a list if they contact me off-site.

Best wishes

Trooper

[MartinWills]

Alan,

Do you have a date and venue for your talk and could I attend? And some details of the Salonika group?

Regards, Liam.

Liam,

Details of the Salonika Campaign Society can be found at

SCS

As regards the extent to which Irish units are "forgotten" the 10th & 16th Divisions spring to mind, but it is worth considering that these are the only two divisions that have had histories completed in the last few years, perhaps underlining growing interest. Teh 10th had a history of their efforts at Gallipoli published not long after the event but a recent volume outlines there history through the entire war. It's not the most comprehensive history but is well worth tracking down.

The titles of both volumes (10th & 16th) reflect their "forgotten" status.

Martin

[Desmond7]

Just to focus on something which I feel requires further investigation by forum members who have a wider 'net' than myself in relation to Irishmen in the war.

Having gone through loads and loads of accounts, I am starting to get a 'feel' for the 6th Btn R.Irish Rifles!

And that feel is ... could it be described as the ultimate, idealistic, adventurous, madcap battalion of all the Irish units?

I have numerous references to men from Ballymena from staunch Orange backgrounds who couldn't or wouldn't wait for the Ulster Div to be formed. They were straight round to the recruitment office and signing their names on the line on the very first day! I am positive it contained just as many 'Green' Irishmen with a similar 'let's get into this fight' attitude.

Ballymena was only a small town in those days, but if the pattern is reflected in other Ulster towns and is undoubtedly matched in the south, I'll bet it was some mixture!

Those who like to follow up a hunch might do well to check out the casualty lists/backgrounds on this btn. I have a very funny feeling it has a unique quality which sets it apart even from the other units in the 10th Div. My guess is that the traditional perspective of Protestant officers and Catholic rank and file goes out the window with this btn. I may be proved wrong but I think a little bit of research will show it was a truly 'All-Ireland/All-denominations btn.

Just a thought.

I too am always happy to see the growing interest in the 10th and 16th Divs.

Des

[awakefield]

Liam & Trooper

Details of my talk are as follows:

Title: 'We marched away into Serbia' - The 10th (Irish) Division and the action at Kosturino.

Date: Saturday 13 November.

Time: 3pm

Venue: Pearse Street Public Library, 138-144 Pearse Street, Dublin.

Details of the full programme of events for the Royal Dublin Fusiliers Association can be found on their website: www.greatwar.ie

I see Martin has beaten me to it with regards to the Salonika Campaign Society website.

ALAN

[curranl]

Hello All,

Thanks for your contributions. Alan, please count me in for November. Des's post made me think about why my own man enlisted. He signed up late in 1914, so perhaps part of it was "the war would be over by Christmas". He was also the second son, so his older brother got the farm - we had no industry in those days, so unless he emigrated he was doomed to the life of a farm labourer. Did he join to defeat the Kaiser or protect small nations? I doubt it very much.

He was 27 in 1914. Here was a chance for a bit of "adventure". He had probably never been more than 20 miles from his home up to that point. I'm sure the seven shillings a week were also attractive. Family history says he saw a recruitment poster in the local town and "got a notion" , signing up on the spot.

I have often wondered how much he regretted that impulse when in a single day in August 1915 on the side of Chunuk Bair most of his battalion became casualties in their first action.

All pure speculation, but interesting none the less!!

Regards,

Liam.

[Guest Desmond6]

Liam - agreed about that day in August. Seems to have been truly horrendous action. All my wounded from 6th btn are reported on and around that date.

Also agree on the 'small nations' scenario. To be frank, I think the first contintgent of these guys were simply swept up with 'Boys Own' ideals of gallantry and glory - to them it was a big adventure.

And, as you say, if your horizons were limited to labouring on the farm or working in the mill, then enlistment can hold a lot of attractions.

We should also remember that there was a long-standing tradition of service in the British Army, particularly in the south. I'd bet a considerable number of early war volunteers had relatives and ancestors who plied their trade with 'brown bess'!

What about the thoughts on the make up of the 6th btn.? Does the theory stand up?

Des

[trooper]

Lots of interesting points being raised here. I think Des is right there was a charge to join the 6th Rifles as it was the first battalion of the Division to come up to full strength, being considered full within a fortnight of its offical creation. Although I am not at home to consult my records I know that the Battalion recruited from all over Ireland not just its traditional recruiting areas of Antrim/Down and Belfast. Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that the 1st battalion had traditionally recruited in the Dublin area before the RDF were taken onto the British Army List, hence their nickname the Dublin Grenadiers - apparently a bit tongue in cheek as the men were generally small as was traditional in light infantry regiments.

Later in the war a large number of the officers of the battalion were Scotsmen causing a fellow officer to comment "on a trek of three days we passed some Scottish regiments from France, and fears were expressed one evening when the bagpipes were heard, lest all the Scottish officers should stampede.”

By the way, research has revealed, and not just mine, that the 6th Rifles were the most Irish battalion of the 10th Division.

Trooper

[curranl]

Hi Des,

I'll have a look through my admittedly limited material on the 6th RIR over the weekend and let you know what I find. We'll have to guess the origin/outlook of the officers from their names - always a dodgy one!! Interesting line of thought though. I suspect that when it came down to fighting side by side it didn't matter a damn to those men what your persuasion was; all that mattered was could you shoot straight.

I also suspect the class divide between officers and other ranks was a far bigger gap than any religious/political outlook difference.

Regards,

Liam.

[Guest Desmond6]

Quoting Curranl - "I suspect that when it came down to fighting side by side it didn't matter a damn to those men what your persuasion was; all that mattered was could you shoot straight."

Liam - precisely my point. That's why I reckon the 6th Btn was unique in its make-up.

A voluntary melting pot of rank and file drawn together to fight in terrible conditions.

It would be enlightening to read how these men reacted to each other in their early days of training and whether - as I suspect - they were imbued with a 'respect' for regiment which transcended any pre-war political viewpoints.

I would take it as 'read' that the officers came from the usual sources. It is the rank and file which particularly fascinates me about this btn.

Des

Trooper - can you expand on the 'Irishness' research?

Cheers to all

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that the 1st battalion had traditionally recruited in the Dublin area before the RDF were taken onto the British Army List, hence their nickname the Dublin Grenadiers - apparently a bit tongue in cheek as the men were generally small as was traditional in light infantry regiments.

Later in the war a large number of the officers of the battalion were Scotsmen causing a fellow officer to comment "on a trek of three days we passed some Scottish regiments from France, and fears were expressed one evening when the bagpipes were heard, lest all the Scottish officers should stampede.”

Trooper - in your second para above, are you refering to officers in 6th RI Rifles, or 1st RI Rifles ?

regards - Tom

[trooper]

Tom - Sorry for the confusion, this was the 6th Battalion.

Des - I will look it up my reference to it being the most Irish of the battalions this evening when I get home. To give you some idea though, the Leinsters received a draft of 600 men from the Somerset LI.

Trooper

[curranl]

Hello All,

I had a look in Cyril Fall's "History of the first seven battalions of the Royal Irish Rifles". In the appendix it gives a list of the medals issued to other ranks of the 6th RIRif. The medals were split exactly in half between those of each persuasion (10 each - ranging from Military Medals to Mentions in Dipatches). I appreciate that this is entirely speculative as I am guessing persuasion/outlook by name - a very dodgy practice!!. If those who were awarded medals were an accurate sample of the makeup of the battalion itself, then it looks like it did indeed draw from both sides of the divide.

The battalion was the first in the 10th Division to come to full strength. According to Timothy Bowmans book "Irish Regiments in the Great War - Discipline and Morale" enlistment in the 6th had reached 905 by 5 September 1914.

The 6th recruitment system must have been quick off the mark - it recruited all over the island and obviously picked up the first rush of volunteers. I had wondered how my grand uncle had managed to end up in a Northern Irish regiment, when either the Royal Irish Regiment or the Leinsters would have been a more "local" regiment - he was from south Kilkenny and signed up in New Ross, Co. Wexford.

On the issue of recognition for these men, it would seem that there may be, at last, some small voices being raised. Let's hope they get louder.

Regards,

Liam.

[Desmond7]

Liam - thanks for input. May I ask how you rated Bowman's book. It's priced £20 in Waterstones in Belfast - I was able to flick through a few pages and it seemed to have some very good 'insight' material.

Love to hear your views.

Des

[curranl]

Hi Des,

The book is a bit of a mixture. It is based on Bowman's PhD thesis, and so can be quite academic in places. If you want to know details of the number of court martials in the 6th RIRifs in Salonika, Bowman is your man.

On the other hand, he does give some interesting bigger picture information on things like recruitment in Ireland, the effect on morale of the 1916 Rising, the fall off in volunteers and the reasons why conscription wasn't introduced.

For me personally it was a bit of a disappointment as his information on the 6th RIRifs was drawn from two main sources - C. Falls "History of the first seven battalions of the Royal Irish Rifles" and Coopers "The tenth Irish division at Gallipoli". In other words he didn't have anything I haven't got myself - not that I can condemn the book for that.

There is also a good deal of information on the situation in your neck of the woods.

Regards,

Liam.

[Desmond7]

Many thanks - Des

[trooper]

Des

As someone who has read Tim Bowman’s thesis I would agree there is little that has been transposed to the book on the 10th (Irish) Division as it deals mainly with the 16th and 36th Divisions. The thesis however shows that he did consider the 10th in more detail than just the 2 sources mentioned but there was less information available than for other 2 divisions.

I promised yesterday to try and substantiate my claim that the 6th Rifles were the most Irish battalion of the 10th Division. I refer to Nick Perry’s article “Nationality in the Irish Infantry Regiments in the First World War” in which Nick undertook extensive analysis of casualties by the various battalions of the 10th Division at Gallipoli before the arrival of reinforcements from the UK. To quote Nick “Two-thirds of the infantry were Irish, with one battalion (the 6th Royal Irish Rifles) over 80% Irish and 6 of the other 11 (battalions) over 50%.” The implication of this is that the other 5 “Irish” battalions had less than 50% of their men who were Irish.

Trooper

[curranl]

Hello Trooper,

I should have added Campbells Diary as the third source of material quoted by Bowman on the 6th RIRifs. The comment was solely from a personal point of view - he simply didn't appear to have any material other than what I had dug up myself. I suppose I had been hoping to find something new on the battalion. Other than the three sources quoted here and the battalion war diary/medal rolls etc at Kew, do you know of any other material in the public domain on the battalion?

As I said in my original post I wouldn't condemn the book on the basis of a personal dissapointment - I found a lot of good stuff in there!

Interesting result on the 6th RIRifs from Nick Perry's article; it would seem to confirm the idea that the 6th got in early and got a lot of the initial rush of volunteers.

Regards,

Liam.

[Michael Pegum]

Going back to the original theme of the forgotten Irish soldiers, you will be interested to hear about what must be one of the newest war memorials. On 15th November, 2003 a memorial was unveiled in Belvedere College in Dublin to the 68 former pupils or staff of the College who died in various military conflicts of the 20th century.

The conflicts include the (2nd) Boer War, the first World War, the Easter Rising (both sides), the War of Independence, the Civil War (both sides), the second World War and the Cypriot War of Independence. The names are inscribed on a marble plaque in the courtyard of the College, and a book with biographies of all those named was published at the same time.

As Belvedere is a Jesuit secondary school, it shows that things really are changing.

Michael Pegum