No Gaps between CWGC headstones

[Ste]

Ste,

i think it is more that they couldn't identify the parts and tell wgo was who...

I know this sounds like horror, but is was often like that.

Oh, I understand that alright. I just wonder if there is any truth to it at all - I;ve heard several anecdotes of aircrew's graves being commemorated in this way. I just wonder if they are absolutely all wistful ponderings, of whether officials of the then IWGC had a romantic streak.

Cheers,

Ste

[Terry Denham]

Ste

No. I am afraid the explanation that the remains were not capable of separation is the correct reason - or that so little was found to bury.

The same has just happened to six RAF men recovered from a crash site in the Netherlands and buried only this month. Six men are buried with six headstones but there is actually only one coffin and one grave. Understandable after sixty plus years but also happened after explosions/fire etc.

[AGWR]

Grey has an alleged interesting past and cause of death which I will not post here!

Terry,

Sounds intriguing. Any clues?

Regards

AGWR

[Terry Denham]

It is an interesting story involving the way the military mind worked at that time. But no - no clues.

[koyli]

Kerry,

The 2nd Bn KOYLI were caught up in a mine explosion together with the QVC's. The mine explosion being at St Eloi. It was not thought worth mentioning in the Regimental History. However it is mentioned in the war Diary. I have a copy of the pages, but where? If I find them I will get you a scan.

REgt History QVC's says :

page 109 :

On the same day that the "Mound of death" was blown up, the Germans explded mines under trenches Q1 and R. Both the QVR in the former and the KOYLI, who were garrisoning the latter, losing heavily..........

About the headstones touching. If you look into cemeteries where there were aid stations or hospitals, you will find more of the same. It is only when they had a lot of casualties in the same action that they would in some cases dig a trench beforehand. I imagine this is what happened at Voormezele, because all the lads died at the same time.

I remember at the time of the Falklands seeing footage of the burial of the Para's, Am I right Goose Green? in a temporary grave This was also a wide trench.

[Annette Burgoyne]

About the headstones touching. If you look into cemeteries where there were aid stations or hospitals, you will find more of the same. It is only when they had a lot of casualties in the same action that they would in some cases dig a trench beforehand. I imagine this is what happened at Voormezele, because all the lads died at the same time

There is footage on the Somme film (I think) of a mass burial of about 20 or so men, they are all placed side by side with no space between them. This burial must be near a hospital because there are alot of men around the burial trench are a chaplin.

Annette

[Cliff. Hobson]

Such graves I believe are referred to as Special Memorials, in a fairly recent posting I made after visiting, Menin Road South Cemetery where two Brothers,

R.E. and A S Barrington, both K.I.A. 12th December 1915, had been buried in Menin Road North Cemetery which was destroyed in later fighting their remains along with others were transferred.

[Terry Denham]

'Special Memorials' are headstones with appropriate superscriptions placed in cemeteries to commemorate casualties who are not buried in that cemetery. They are not necessarily touching headstones.

As you say, they occur when the original grave in another cemetery has been destroyed, lost or is unmaintainable. They are also used when a body is known to be in the same cemetery but its location is unknown.

[Nick Cooper]

Ryan

Funny you should post this pic as I was thinking of these very headstones when posting earlier in the thread.

They are in Eastbourne (Ocklynge) Cemetery, East Sussex and there are several others of the same ilk.

There appears to be no space problem in this cemetery - at least at the time of these burials and so why so many were buried in double graves is interesting.

On my very first visit to CWGC HQ several years ago, I asked why this cemetery had such double burials when nowhere else in Sussex did on such a scale. The answer was "Don't know".

The burials were organised by the military and the men were from local camps/hospitals. It is possible that the military and cemetery authorities at the time were planning ahead expecting far more burials than actually materialised or simply were keeping down costs (one grave being cheaper than two).

An interesting research project for you!

It's worth noting that at the time multiple burials in the same grave were not unusual on a civil level. My great-great-grandfather was killed while assisting in the launch of an RNLI lifeboat to aid a stricken minesweeper in Bridlington bay in 1915, and the Institute paid for the grave, which was "authorised" for two furthur burials. One of his daughters - my great-grandmother was subsequently buried in the same grave, but when her daughter (my maternal grandmother) died in 1989, the family was told that the grave was "full," but if she was cremated, they could inter the ashes in it. At the time, none of the immediate family still lived in Bridlington, and so this apparent anomaly couldn't be immediately investigated, plus it wasn't really the time to start a "fight" on the issue, so the recommended course of action was taken. It was only when we were actually in the cemetery during the internment ceremony that the possible cause of the confusion became clear: apart from my great-great-grandfather and his daughter, the gravestone also names his youngest son, who died of wounds during WW1. Presumably the cemetery staff had taken a look at the grave, counted three names and come to the conclusion that the grave was "full." They didn't know that the son - my great-great-uncle Joseph - is actually buried at Etaples, and that the inscription on the grave is merely a memorial!

[Nick Cooper]

Ste

No. I am afraid the explanation that the remains were not capable of separation is the correct reason - or that so little was found to bury.

The same has just happened to six RAF men recovered from a crash site in the Netherlands and buried only this month. Six men are buried with six headstones but there is actually only one coffin and one grave. Understandable after sixty plus years but also happened after explosions/fire etc.

I suppose an exceptional - also WW2 - example of this would be the "cross-border" burial of Maj-Gen Orde Wingate at Arlington National Cemtery, Virginia, USA. Because the occupants of the transport aircraft he was in when it crashed where predominently American, all the remains were returned to the US and are in a collective grave at Arlington, having originally been buried first at the crash site and then at Imphal (there seems to be some dispute as to whether all the remains were actually recovered during the first move). Apart from Wingate, on board were two British war correspondents and Wingate's ADC (a Captain of the Royal Sussex Regiment) and five Americans. The latter being the majority tipped the balance as to which country could "claim" the collective remains, but their transfer from India to the US seems to have been a somewhat shoddy affair, with Wingate and the other Briton's families only being informed 24 hours before the re-internment.

[Terry Denham]

Not exceptional but not common.

It was a rule in WW2 that when remains of mixed nationality forces (Commonwealth/Non-Commonwealth) were found and could not be separated, then the remains were buried according to the rules of the country with the majority. But the Commonwealth graves are still War Graves to be maintained by CWGC.

In the Wingate instance the majority were American and so they were returned to the USA.

[kerry]

Dear KOYLI,

thank you for this helpful detail about St Eloi - if you could e-mail me the scanned in pages I would be very grateful - would you like me to send you a blank CD?

Kerry

[303man]

In some cases Trenches were pre dug by the men before battle. I have a photo somewhere of a long mass trench type grave with the bodies being placed side by side and earth backfilled over those buried and as time and more bodies were added more was progressively backfilled these were usually found close to battlefied casualty clearing stations were soldiers died during or waiting for treatment the rows normally have like dated deaths or dates over a period of several days.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

I think you should always take in account in which kind of cemetery you find the grave.

An original battlefield or frontline cemetery along a slow moving combat line were intense and repeated fighting occured is often the place where you"ll find these situations.

A clear example is Tyne Cot : combined graves are only found on the original part of the cemetery : sometimes two or three names on one grave, sometimes graves with no intervals and even the combination of the two. In this case Christophe's explanation is surely part of the story: the area was shelled constantly for another month (other examples at Essex Farm, same situation).

Also burying was not first priority in these stage of the battle. A shellhole was often the quickest way to bury an important number of people in difficult situations.

Another explanation for the hospital cemeteries: obviously officers were buried separated on these places, with more space between the headstones. It seems that they were buried in coffins, in contrast to the men who were put in graves in simple bags or blankets, maybe even two in one grave. Check this at Lyssenthoek : the graves of the NCO's and men are much closer to each other, and they are not in the same rows.

Erwin

[John W]

Sadly, no, as living Up North its not an easy place for me to get to.

Kerry

THe KOYLI archive have a full set of the battalion war diaries

If you look up the address of the light infantry office in Pontefract and give them a ring they are rather helpfull.

JOhn

[Oggy2378]

On 25/05/2004 at 17:08, kerry said:

Dear All,

on researching Pte Harry Checkley of 2nd Bn KOYLI, I found his grave at Vormezeele Enclosure No 3, along with 18 others killed the same day 15 July 1915 at St Eloi. I noted that all 19 headstones were bunched together with no gaps between any of them.

Could anyone advise what the meaning, if any, of ths is, and also how I could find out more as to what happened to 2 KOYLI on that day at St Eloi?

Many thanks

Kerry

Very late to the party, 16 years to be precise! However, my great grandfather Robert Clegg Hutchinson is one of the soldiers who died that day and is buried in the row of headstones referred to. I have just recently completed research into his and his comrades deaths including war diaries and local press articles. If anyone requires information, please feel free to contact me.