No Gaps between CWGC headstones

[kerry]

Dear All,

on researching Pte Harry Checkley of 2nd Bn KOYLI, I found his grave at Vormezeele Enclosure No 3, along with 18 others killed the same day 15 July 1915 at St Eloi. I noted that all 19 headstones were bunched together with no gaps between any of them.

Could anyone advise what the meaning, if any, of ths is, and also how I could find out more as to what happened to 2 KOYLI on that day at St Eloi?

Many thanks

Kerry

[Muerrisch]

As to what happened that day, have you tried the unit war diary, available at Kew?

[kerry]

Sadly, no, as living Up North its not an easy place for me to get to.

Kerry

[bkristof]

Head stones whitout a gap between means it is a joint grave...

this means that there was no possibility to identify the bodies found seperatly.

they knew who fell there but they could say for sure who was who. Or very ironical said, what part was from who.

Sometimes this was so after heavy shelling where graves where "mixed".

i hope i helped,

kristof

[Aurel Sercu]

Kerry,

Sorry, I can't help you either. (I was thinking of having a look tomorrow in the KOYLI Reg. History tomorrow in Ypres, but it's one of the few books that is not there).

However, if you go to the Section Document Repository of this Forum, and then to Unit histories, you will see that one of the Forum members has this KOYLI Reg. History, and offers his services ...

As he helped me out a few weeks ago ...

Aurel

[Sue Light]

Not an answer to Kerry's question, but this photo of Pont de Nieppe Communal cemetery shows the middle row of headstones with no gaps. Every one of them died within a three week period from the 21st October 1918 onwards, and were the victims of influenza. In this case it was just a question of running out of space.

Sue

[Patrick ODwyer]

Some headstones positioned like this were found in cemeteries used in hospital areas. Trench like holes were dug and men placed in them side by side in succession. Because they are close some headstones then had two names. In fact all the men in these cases are usually identified. An example would be Longuenesse at St Omer.

[Terry Denham]

The reasons given above for the adjacent touching headstones are both correct and there is a third reason.

Sometimes bodies were buried in an existing trench or shell hole and had to be squeezed into the available space - really a variation on Sue's reason.

[bkristof]

So I am wrong??? or is it simular like others Terry?

I have it from an stone encarver, unfortunaly he died a few years ago...

Sometimes there are even 2 names on 1 stone.

This is often at hospital sites,indeed because of the "trench they dug", but also on battlefield cemeteries, like Polygone wood. And then my reason goes up for it. Or am i misinformed?

[Terry Denham]

No - yours was one of the two correct reasons given.

You are right that on occasions bodies could not be separated and were buried together. That may also be the reason why two names may appear on a battlefield headstone (occasionally they can say 'Believed to be X or Y when which of two individuals is not known).

Other times two names will indicate a shortage of space.

[paul guthrie]

The reasons given above for the adjacent touching headstones are both correct and there is a third reason.

Sometimes bodies were buried in an existing trench or shell hole and had to be squeezed into the available space - really a variation on Sue's reason.

I think Hunter's Cemetery in Newfoundland Park is an example, they are in a circle around what was a shell hole & if I remember right, are touching.

[bkristof]

Tuilleries cemetery at zillebeke:

all the stones are on the outside against the wall. This because there is no more exact grave left...

[Ken Lees]

I was surprised to find a number of headstones which stated something like 'Four soldiers of the Great War' and even a headstone to five & six unknown men. I think that this was in Hooge Crater Cemetery, but that is only from memory.

In this case the headstones were 'normally' spaced and not touching or overlapping.

Ken

[salientpoints]

So I am wrong??? or is it simular like others Terry?

I have it from an stone encarver, unfortunaly he died a few years ago...

Sometimes there are even 2 names on 1 stone.

This is often at hospital sites,indeed because of the "trench they dug", but also on battlefield cemeteries, like Polygone wood. And then my reason goes up for it. Or am i misinformed? 

Here's one with two next to each other and two names on each but all different dates and regiments.

I am sure Terry will have more of an idea why this may be so. It surely isn't a space issue in the local cemetery here.

Ryan

[Terry Denham]

Ryan

Funny you should post this pic as I was thinking of these very headstones when posting earlier in the thread.

They are in Eastbourne (Ocklynge) Cemetery, East Sussex and there are several others of the same ilk.

There appears to be no space problem in this cemetery - at least at the time of these burials and so why so many were buried in double graves is interesting.

On my very first visit to CWGC HQ several years ago, I asked why this cemetery had such double burials when nowhere else in Sussex did on such a scale. The answer was "Don't know".

The burials were organised by the military and the men were from local camps/hospitals. It is possible that the military and cemetery authorities at the time were planning ahead expecting far more burials than actually materialised or simply were keeping down costs (one grave being cheaper than two).

An interesting research project for you!

[Terry Denham]

Just to add to the above...

Liebrecht died in a motor cycle accident in Chiddingly, Sussex and Grey has an alleged interesting past and cause of death which I will not post here! (No - it has no sexual connections!).

This pic is a good example of CWGC's custom of engraving names in alphabetical order rather than in order of death for double graves.

[kerry]

Many thanks to all those who kindly took the trouble to reply.

Whilst by no means an expert on CWG planning, I am not swayed by the line that headstones were joined together owing to lack of space. i tend more to the line that there is a specific reason for deliberately placing headstones together.

On the other hand, if Harry Checkley and his mates were all identifiable, (which, given that each has his own headstone, presumably means they were), why have no gaps between their headstones?

If all 19 were two Sections, and the Pln Cdr or Pln Sgt knew exactly where all 19 were when they were all killed, and whose remains were intermingled, but all individually identifiable as separate casualties, why again no gaps between them when laid to rest?

Yet again, if all were known but their remains indistinguishable, why not put all 19 names on one grave, as for the RE Tunnelling Cross of Remembrance and memorial near Hooge?

And if CWG authorities don't know, then this will remain a mystery.

Kerry

[Terry Denham]

Kerry

You are overlooking a couple of points.

Burials were often made in existing trenches/holes. In these cases the men were squeezed in to avoid the further trouble of more digging - especially if anywhere near the front line. So, space was often a consideration. The same applied if there was limited expansion room for a cemetery. This may or may not have applied in the location you mention.

Also, the burials were not planned by CWGC. The burying was done by the army before the cemeteries were turned over to CWGC for the addition of headstones, architecture etc. When CWGC took over this cemetery, it was obviously known who was in the particular grave line but not necessarily in which order the bodies lay. This situation would also produce a close row of headstones.

CWGC's policy is to give every individual casualty their own commemoration if possible and so casualties have their own headstone. The option of lumping them all together on one memorial block/wall or headstone was used only where unavoidable through local circumstances.

Have you asked CWGC if they still have the burial returns for this cemetery? They could give you a clue.

[salientpoints]

Ryan

Funny you should post this pic as I was thinking of these very headstones when posting earlier in the thread.

They are in Eastbourne (Ocklynge) Cemetery, East Sussex and there are several others of the same ilk.

There appears to be no space problem in this cemetery - at least at the time of these burials and so why so many were buried in double graves is interesting.

On my very first visit to CWGC HQ several years ago, I asked why this cemetery had such double burials when nowhere else in Sussex did on such a scale. The answer was "Don't know".

The burials were organised by the military and the men were from local camps/hospitals. It is possible that the military and cemetery authorities at the time were planning ahead expecting far more burials than actually materialised or simply were keeping down costs (one grave being cheaper than two).

An interesting research project for you!

Thanks Terry,

I will put this on my research list along with 'Ange' my results so far have come to a bit of a standstill but nonetheless interesting so far as a previous posting showed.

Cheers

Ryan

[Max]

Hello Everyone

The attached photo was taken at Kemmel Chateau Cemetery. I am sure that the explanation for this type of headstone has been given on the forum previously, but I can't find it. Could someone explain?

Andy

[Terry Denham]

This is a grave containing two known casualties.

It is possibly a space saving exercise or the two sets of remains were intermingled and could not be separated - they did die on the same day. Alternatively, only parts of two bodies were recovered and were placed in a single grave.

[Terry Denham]

One further point on this subject......

There are some cemeteries on the Western Front where there are rows of graves with more than one body buried in each grave. However, each man still has an individual headstone.

Therefore this means that the row of headstones is longer than the row of graves!

This can be confusing for visitors as each grave has a number but the number does not correspond with the number of the headstone in the row.

The headstones may also be closed up for this reason.

[Max]

Thanks for the answer Terry, I thought it must be something like bodies intermingled etc.

Andy

[Ste]

Not specific to the Western Front, but there can be another reason for CWGC gravestones to be grouped so closely that they touch.

In Suda Bay CWGC cemetary in Crete there are a group of RAF gravestones serried shoulder to shoulder, all having been killed in the same plane crash. In such cases I have heard that the contact between the gravestones is a deliberate recognition of the fact that they are a crew - solidarity in death, as well as life, I suppose.

I cannot prove definitively that this is the case, however, I think the circumstantial evidence supports it. There was no shortage of space for the burials at Suda. Heavy though the casualties at Crete were, they did not approach the density of the Western Front.

Or am I being too romantic?

Ste

[bkristof]

Not specific to the Western Front, but there can be another reason for CWGC gravestones to be grouped so closely that they touch.

In Suda Bay CWGC cemetary in Crete there are a group of RAF gravestones serried shoulder to shoulder, all having been killed in the same plane crash. In such cases I have heard that the contact between the gravestones is a deliberate recognition of the fact that they are a crew - solidarity in death, as well as life, I suppose.

I cannot prove definitively that this is the case, however, I think the circumstantial evidence supports it. There was no shortage of space for the burials at Suda. Heavy though the casualties at Crete were, they did not approach the density of the Western Front.

Or am I being too romantic?

Ste

Ste,

i think it is more that they couldn't identify the parts and tell wgo was who...

I know this sounds like horror, but is was often like that.