RFC tunic, helmet, goggles

[dutchbarge]

Hello,

The below linked RFC ensemble has been on eBay for a few days now. Despite my admittedly limited experience with RFC officer's kit I see a few issues with this grouping which diverge from the norm.......possibly all perfectly correct but (at least for myself) need some clarification.

1. Although we've had this discussion before, I am still wary of any purportedly WW1 vintage osd jacket (excepting Guards) that is made of Barrathea instead of Gabardine twill and this jacket appears on my tired old PC screen to be Barrathea. Has Barrathea fabric been used on other Forum member's RFC maternity osd jackets or ones they have examined?

2. Most examples of RFC maternity osd jackets I've seen have embroidered cloth rank stars or crowns on the shoulder straps, this example has bronzed ones. (Not that it matters much but it appears the middle star in the eBay fotos is of a different size (and upside down)). Have any Forum members owned or examined examples of RFC maternity osd jackets with metal rank stars/crowns?

3. The collar dog in the eBay foto appears much effaced by wear or polishing. It also appear (at least on my ancient PC) to be brass. I would have expected osd collar dogs to be bronze not brass? Regards polishing, unless it was done by collectors over the past 90 years, why would the dogs, if original to the jacket, be so worn? Bronze osd badges would not have been polished.......and if they are brass, as the RAF shortly superceded the RFC, how could they have been so effaced in so short a time? I could see it if they were rattling around loose for 90 years, but not if they were on the jacket. I wrote the seller and he told me that there are several other holes on the collar behind the current badges, so perhaps these are not original to the jacket. Perhaps the original bronze RFC dogs were replaced by RAF and then a subsequent collectors added RFC ones?

Other than that the maker's address would place the flight helmet post 1917 (W1), I can't add much about the helmet or goggles.

Cheers, Bill

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Digital-Audiophile]

I've been watching this one myself, and I have been meaning to ask for better pictures. The ones supplied really are subpar considering the amount of money I assume this will go for. Without the pictures however there are a few things that I don't like compared to the tunics in my collection and those that I have seen. I want to go through some of my books to see what I can find as well.

I do not like the collar dogs, I agree that wear is not the same as what appears on the rest of the tunic, allthough they could have been added/changed. I would expect to see cloth rank pips, but anything is possible I guess. I would like to see the bottom of the straps to see what they look like?

The other thing to note is that the tunic is very discoloured, you can see in the one rear photos the shadow of the sam brown.

[Vimyridge]

Hello mates!

Well I must state that I am no RFC expert as I focus mainly on Canadian tunics.

However I do have a complete RFC grouping (see below) that is made of Barrathea. It is named to 2nd Lt J Weston Barber (From Auckland New Zealand)

You can see his photo next to the tunic below.

The tunic is dated with a red stamp Jan 1918. The chocolate collars and chocolate pips I believe are original to the tunic.

You can see I've pulled away the pip to reveal some wear spot caused my the point of the star or "pip"

There was also an impression of the lugs under the shoulder strap.

This tunic came to me from a trusted collector over ten years ago.

The tunic was made by Burberrys as well as the cap with is made of Gabardine.

The Burberry labels look identical with the tunic's label being much larger (Sorry I do not want to take the display down to take inside photos, too much work and I try to

avoid manipulating the artifacts as this is how things get damaged)

I have added a photo of what I believe is a observer 2nd Lt with metal pips.

It's hard to make out but using the light tones of the observers wing as a reference point, you can see the pip is not at all the same hue or tone.

The lightest part of a cloth pip would be about the same tonal value as the wing. but agin I am no expert here.

As for the collars on the ebay tunic...sure they may not be original..but the reality is that many tunics have had

original badges removed years ago as the badges were more collectable than the tunics...this is fact.

I don't think "non original" badges, should or will distract from the item selling at a high price. Add in the flight helmet and other goodies.

I'm be watching this one to see what it sells for.

Cheers

Roger

[Vimyridge]

[Vimyridge]

[Digital-Audiophile]

Roger,

I love that grouping, What a great example.

I don't doubt that the tunic offered for sale is anything but original itself, but I have a sneaking feeling it is going to sell for a good deal more than it is really worth. I would imagine the hammer price will be $4500-$4800. I guess it depends on who comes out to bid.

The real detractor for me is the UV damage. I guess if one was to display with a sam brown it would hide the discolouration, but for me it is a big detractor.

I figured I would post a few teaser pics of my RFC tunics to show the differences in materials and rank pips... The lighting in my war room is difficult to photograph with in the evening so the pictures are not the best, I will have to share my whole room at some point (although after spending many hours drooling over your room I am a little shy to post mine)

Greg

[Vimyridge]

What are you talking about..don't be shy

You should post the photos, I'd love to see the rest of those tunics..I'd love to have them as well.

As for the tunic on ebay, the fading does not bother me too much...only because they are so rare.

As for the collars..I was just looking at them again, the detail in non existent, so they may be repros..or they were over polished..yet, why would an officer buy dark badges to polish them later on....hmmmm

[dutchbarge]

The other thing to note is that the tunic is very discoloured, you can see in the one rear photos the shadow of the sam brown.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that.....but now that you have pointed it out, it seems that not one, but two shoulder straps (in addition to the belt) have left their 'ghosts' on the jacket's back side.

Cheers, Bill

[dutchbarge]

Thanks, Roger, great photos and information! So, OK on the barrathea and metal shoulder stars...........the extra holes on the collars behind the extent dogs, and the condition of the dogs themselves, would seem to confirm that they have been replaced. Were RFC badges traded for RAF in July 1918? If so this might account for the extra holes, and the dodgey RFC dogs on the jacket now. I've seen so many nice pairs of bronzed osd RFC dogs on eBay in the past that I'm surprised this one has such poor examples.

Cheers, Bill

[dutchbarge]

Greg, Great fotos.............I too would really like to see more of your collection!

Cheers, Bill

[Chief_Chum]

This is my Officers Maternity Jacket.

It's a little battered and I think the collar has been replaced (whether in 'service' or for film work later I don't know). The collar badges are real but it is missing all six cloth pips (if any of you have a spare set let me know!).

Despite being battered, the provenance makes up for up. As you can see on the label, this jacket belonged to Captain CB Henderson of Number 1 Squadron. If I can find it I will post the photo of Henderson with his fellow pilots stranding by the tails of their SE5As in 1918.

.

[Chief_Chum]

Pilots of Number 1 Squadron, Clairmarais, July 1918.

CB Henderson Arrowed.

.

[Digital-Audiophile]

Thanks gents :-) I had in my hands just a few weeks ago an Lt. observers maternity that had RFC shoulder flashes, so I assume that it was an NCO that became an officer and kept the tunic and upgraded it. It was rather yellow which I almost attributed to UV damage however the shoulder flashes and the observers brevet were not faded at all, so perhaps a different fabric again? If I hadn't already an observer myself I would have been interested (I'd rather hunt out new goodies than have two of the "same" tunic). For reference the dealer was asking $3500 CDN for the tunic, leather flight helmet and flight gloves. I believe he still has it.. so if it tickles anyones fancy let me know and I can pass on the contact info.

[Grovetown]

Here's mine: named and dated to 1917, Canadian made.

Barathea for RFC wouldn't bother me, nor the metal pips, nor the collar finish - as not unheard of to encounter 'bronzed' (i.e patinated brass) rather than bronze dogs.

The UV thing though is real shame: a mate of mine ruined an early 1915 pattern SD I'd sold him the same way. Regret letting him have it, for not knowing what a poor custodian he'd be.

Best wishes,

GT.

[scottmarchand]

Thanks, Roger, great photos and information! So, OK on the barrathea and metal shoulder stars...........the extra holes on the collars behind the extent dogs, and the condition of the dogs themselves, would seem to confirm that they have been replaced. Were RFC badges traded for RAF in July 1918? If so this might account for the extra holes, and the dodgey RFC dogs on the jacket now. I've seen so many nice pairs of bronzed osd RFC dogs on eBay in the past that I'm surprised this one has such poor examples.

Cheers, Bill

The maternity pattern tunic was declared obsolete when the RAF formed and it is unlikely that RAF collars would have been added to this service dress. There was a grace period for uniform changes over and as the patterns changed you fnd a lot of peculiar uniform combinations and regulation interpretations in the 1918-19 time frame, so I wouldn't say impossible, but very improable. However, these tunis were widely used, and also snapped up by costumers and theatres. Also keep in mind that as officers private purchase kit when the regulations on uniforms changed these were retired home enmasse and tucked away whic is why, frankly, they ar enot so much rare as less avilable as they are all in colleciton so r musuems etc. Finding bona fide regiemtnal RFC tunics is a much more challenings prospect.

here is mine:

[Andrew Upton]

Curiously, I could swear I've seen the Ebay listing tunic for sale on the web sometime ago, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, if not more. Certainly the faded mark of the double cross-straps is ringing a lot of bells in my memory. If it is that one, I also seem to recall it was missing the collar badges, which would explain those on it now being not quite right for display replacements, but the rest of the insignia was intact as far as I remember.

[Digital-Audiophile]

You know, now that you mention it this tunic does seem familiar, The ebay seller has a lot of other interesting RFC goodies up for sale at the same time too. Alas shipping on some of the bigger items is a big drawback being on the Canuck side of the pond.

I have to say I am very happy to see all the maternity tunics being posted. It makes my day

I agree that they are not as rare as it may seem, I guess no different than any other great war uniform... Not many "coming out of the woodwork" I would imagine now since the vets are long gone and their children are gone or passing as we speak

What are "rare" to me are RNAS tunics. In the 6-7 years I have been collecting great war aviation items I have yet to see a single one outside of a museum. A friend of mine is working on getting one out of a collection for me, but I've been waiting over a year already for that to happen. I'm in it for the long haul Perhaps taking this thread a bit off topic, I would love to see any RNAS tunics that may be in the collections of you fine gentlemen.

Greg

[Andrew Upton]

You know, now that you mention it this tunic does seem familiar, The ebay seller has a lot of other interesting RFC goodies up for sale at the same time too. Alas shipping on some of the bigger items is a big drawback being on the Canuck side of the pond.

Again, if it's the one I'm thinking of, it was just a tunic on its own, no other associated gear. From the questions at the bottom of the listing, it appears at least one potential bidder believes the grouping to be from the same man...

[Vimyridge]

Scott, Chief Chum, Greg and G.T

Thanks for posting those wonderful photos, very NICE!! (Nice display G.T.)

Chief Chum..I like that earlier variation you have where the breast flap does not attach under the shoulder strap!

Regardless of how rare or not these tunics are, they are not a dime a dozen.

To me it's a special item and I could care less if it was worth $5 or $5000

I just love it!!! 2nd Lt Barber has a special place in the collection. I do however wish I could get a Canadian named tunic.

Cheers

R

[dutchbarge]

Hello Roger,

Just a petty quibble but it appears the star (pip) on your maternity jacket shoulder strap is upside down? I believe the tips of the miters/crowns on the star should point to the shoulder strap button.

Cheers, Bill

PS: I've just checked my own collection and several jackets have stars which are (just as they came to me when I acquired the jackets) upside down too! Don't know if I'll correct them?

[Vimyridge]

Bill

NO SIR!!! do not correct them.

I've had this discussion with many collectors...do you really think officers sat there and made sure the pips were pointed in the right direction

Chances are those types of details are noticed by collectors today but I think it was the last thing on the officers mind.

Sewing major's crowns upside down....now that would be a problem, or a RFC wing on the sleeve..oh wait, no I've seen that done.

Oh and I've seen a Lewis gun badge on the wrong sleeve, and an overseas chevron worn on the left sleeve and a cap badge worn upside down.

I've seen so many period photos of incorrect ways to wear insignia, things that would make collectors go HUH?

My fav' is a photo of a Canadian wearing his HUGE white metal Glengarry badge on his soft trench cap.

Oh and another one is a dispatch rider who cut the wings off an RFC patch and placed them on either side of a transport wheel patch into his tunic

I have seen variations of metal pips worn in multi-rotational positions on officers tunics that came right from the family and I'm talking both wars and post war.

So for the love of God....leave them the way you found them, you might just be messing up some officers handy work...hee hee hee

Cheers friend!

Roger

[Chief_Chum]

"Chief Chum..I like that earlier variation you have where the breast flap does not attach under the shoulder strap! "

Hi Roger, glad you like it!

The top hook and the top three buttons have been moved to accommodate a larger collar/chest. Still not sure whether to put it back how it was (the flap has not been cut and still reaches) as it could have been done at the time although my money is on it being adapted for the 1976 film, 'Aces High' or the TV series, 'Wings'...

[Vimyridge]

Chief Chum

How do you know for sure that your tunics was used in the film industry? Just wondering.

is there a UCI costume stamp inside?

On a note about metal pips, I found a quote in a Osprey book (I know there are mistakes in some osprey books..but then again no book is 100 error proof)

It states...

"Rank was indicated by gilt or bronze metal pips and crowns as well as embroidered ones"

As for the closure flap on your tunic,

it seems the style that does NOT extend flush to the shoulder strap is a detail normally found on the first pattern 1912 version.

Yet the 1912 version would normally have vertical pockets without a pocket flaps.

Perhaps your is a transitional model, but then again officers tunics vary greatly as the officer and tailors did not always follow regulations to the letter.

[wainfleet]

Roger

Those Osprey books were a valiant attempt to fill a big gap and were better than nothing in their day. The early ones especially were not very well researched and - as you say - contain plenty of errors. However it's undoubtedly true that various types of pips were worn by RFC officers. Each individual either thought one type or another looked smartest, or just didn't care and got whatever was handy.

I once owned a 4-pocket tunic to a March 1917 casualty with, IIRC, dulled brass pips.

I agree with you 100% re "correcting" pips. It is part of a uniform's service history and there's absolutely nothing to gain from changing it. It's not as if someone has changed them round later. If that's how it was worn in the war, leave it!

W.

[Chief_Chum]

"How do you know for sure that your tunics was used in the film industry? Just wondering.

is there a UCI costume stamp inside?"

Hi Roger,

A few years ago one of the major costumiers here in the UK sold off a lot of their military uniforms via a separate company. A friend of mine bought this at the time and he believed it came from that source.

"As for the closure flap on your tunic,

it seems the style that does NOT extend flush to the shoulder strap is a detail normally found on the first pattern 1912 version.

Yet the 1912 version would normally have vertical pockets without a pocket flaps.

Perhaps your is a transitional model, but then again officers tunics vary greatly as the officer and tailors did not always follow regulations to the letter."

The two small holes where the loop for the top hook was originally sited can be seen quite clearly so I think it has just been moved. As much as I would like to think it was an early one, the tailors label says it was made in May 1917.

Cheers,

Taff