Christmas tin

[glenn1]

Currently for sale on ebay is a tin with a cloth patch with a picture of a bullet embroidered on it I've never seen one before is it an original item or is it something thats been made up later

Glenn

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Glenn,

That's lovely - it's a VTC Marksman's badge (the Volunteer Training Corps were a kind of WW1 Home Guard).

I have never seen one repro'd but that's not to say they haven't been. They are usually rectangular - I have never seen one sewn in an oval before.

Here is a photo of a Suffolk VTC Marksman wearing one on his cuff.

Cheers,

Taff

PS: Can you post the eBay link?

[Mick D]

it is item 190389111289.

Mick

[Chief_Chum]

Thanks Mick.

[glenn1]

Thanks Taff great stuff it is nice but getting a bit pricey for me

And cheers for doing the link Mick

Glenn

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Glenn,

Yes, it's a shame that someone has put the lot together like that.

A tobacco tin did not come with a bullet pencil and the VTC patch has nothing to do with the tins at all (although you can see the logic which the seller would think it did - 'bullet pencil' and 'M' monogram!).

The tin is a pretty ropey example but would still fetch a fair price. I'm sure that if he had listed the VTC patch separately he would have got more for the two than he will together.

Here is a scan of my Marksmans badge on the more usual rectangular backing.

Cheers,

Taff

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[glenn1]

Hi Taff

It’s amazing the money the tins are making especially combined with the contents

I have a beaten up family tin that was carried through the trenches its empty bar a photo a Bible and a folded post card but then there can’t have been many returning with cigarettes and tobacco , I would of imagined even the non smokers would have donated there supplies

The Marksman patch really is a lovely item I will keep my eyes open you never know

Glenn

[Andrew Upton]

Clickable link for ease of finding:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...%3D1&_rdc=1

[Chris P]

A tobacco tin did not come with a bullet pencil

.

Taff;

That's incorrect. The bullet pencil was one of several substitute gifts issued instead of the rope lighter which couldn't be supplied in sufficient quantities. It therefore formed part of the smokers gift initially, hence they regularly turn up with the tobacco & cigs, & was subsequently included in the non smokers gift.

It is also a popular misconception that these were issued as a 'boys' gift. Boys were treated simply as smokers or non smokers & received one or other of those gifts accordingly.

Chris P.

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Chris,

I've got a full tin with contents which belonged to William 'Buller' Searle of 2/Suffolk. He received a bullet pencil with the tin (which I also have) but it has no monogram on the case. It is (from memory) a 1912 dated, fired, cartridge with the usual silver head and pencil. I thought that he must have lost the original and replaced the case but his daughter was adamant that it was all just as he had sent it home. The IWM overview of the Fund states that bullet pencils were one of the lighter replacement gifts so, since owning Bill's, I had assumed (always a dangerous thing to do I know) that they were all unmarked like Bill Searle's. I had thought that the monogrammed ones were the consolation gifts for all those who received theirs in 1915. Do you have any better sources than the IWM overview? It would be good to know for sure.

I had never heard of the pencils being given to Boys. The info on distribution is pretty clear.

I have a nice 1915 set given to a sailor who was serving on HMS Cadmus and was one of the party responsible for collecting battle trophies from SMS Emden for the Australian Government. He sent his tin home complete along with some Emden souvenirs he had managed to pinch for himself.

Do you know anyone who has the candy or spices given to the different Indian troops? I have quite a wide collection of Gift Fund pieces but I have never come across the specifically Indian pieces. It would be good to see them.

Cheers,

Taff

[Chris P]

Hello Taff!

The monogrammed pencil did form part of the 1915 gift, along with the tin & 1915 card. It was not a consolation as such, but as the fund had monies left over after the distribution of the original gifts as intended, it was decided to extend the gift to troops at home, & on other fronts apart from F & F..

The IWM records also clearly state that: "Those who should also have received the lighter as part of their gift, were given instead, a handsome bullet pencil in a silver cartridge case which bore Princess Mary's monogram."

I have occasionally seen plain examples as yours turn up in the tins - a few over the years, & all have been prewar dated rounds. I can't offer an explanation as to how or why, and have assumed as you have that it has been subsequently replaced, - maybe commercially produced?

I have never seen the candy or spices, & know of no survivors. I do know of one surviving tin with the acid drops - I did bid on it when it came up for auction, but I lost the will to live well before the £800 odd it went for!

I do have some gifts in their original cardboard outers - For those that are not aware, the tins with tobacco & fags were delivered in a cardboard box, approx twice the height of the tin, in which the remaining gift items - lighter, pipe, etc were placed. The later 1915 gifts were contained within a smaller box, as no additional contents were included.

I also have a complete mint Non smokers gift 'writing set', & would provide some pics of any of these if anyone's interested..

Incidentally Taff, do you have any info on the Queen Alexandra gifts, or any others for that matter?

Chris P.

[Chris P]

Hello TE

No, there doesn't seem to be anything published.

What I do know is that they were a personal gift from Queen Alexandra to members of the Household regiments only. This would explain their relative scarcity.

I have two full ones of the 1914 example you show, each containing 25 cigarettes bearing queen Alexandras signature, & one empty one from 1916, of a different shape & design. I would assume that there is at least a 1915 one out there somewhere.

Any more info would certainly be welcome..

Other gifts generally distributed to troops at the front for xmas 14 included a small tin of goodies from the British Grocers Federation, & others from Cities or Corporations supporting their local regiment.

Apart from the Princess Mary Gift, wounded soldiers each received a tin of chocolate from Cadburys, in one of several different shaped & designed tins, with a get well message enclosed. I also have a xmas 1915 version of this, still containing the chocolate but now reduced to a cardboard box - There may well have been other issues through 1916 & on, but I'm yet to find one.

Chris P

[mark holden]

Chris,

I would be very interested in seeing pics of your writing set. I was lucky enough to find the outer cover but sadly no inernal contents.

Mark

Hello Taff!

The monogrammed pencil did form part of the 1915 gift, along with the tin & 1915 card. It was not a consolation as such, but as the fund had monies left over after the distribution of the original gifts as intended, it was decided to extend the gift to troops at home, & on other fronts apart from F & F..

The IWM records also clearly state that: "Those who should also have received the lighter as part of their gift, were given instead, a handsome bullet pencil in a silver cartridge case which bore Princess Mary's monogram."

I have occasionally seen plain examples as yours turn up in the tins - a few over the years, & all have been prewar dated rounds. I can't offer an explanation as to how or why, and have assumed as you have that it has been subsequently replaced, - maybe commercially produced?

I have never seen the candy or spices, & know of no survivors. I do know of one surviving tin with the acid drops - I did bid on it when it came up for auction, but I lost the will to live well before the £800 odd it went for!

I do have some gifts in their original cardboard outers - For those that are not aware, the tins with tobacco & fags were delivered in a cardboard box, approx twice the height of the tin, in which the remaining gift items - lighter, pipe, etc were placed. The later 1915 gifts were contained within a smaller box, as no additional contents were included.

I also have a complete mint Non smokers gift 'writing set', & would provide some pics of any of these if anyone's interested..

Incidentally Taff, do you have any info on the Queen Alexandra gifts, or any others for that matter?

Chris P.

[Canadawwi]

I have a tin I purchased on ebay a few years back. It has the tobacco and cigarette packs. One cigarette appears to be missing. The cigarettes themselves look very old and crisp.

I was told that the foil used in these packs has a certain impressed pattern not seen in the reproductions. Unfortunately, I don't have the tin handy to take a photo of this pattern.

[Chris P]

CanadaWW1....

The original cigarette pack has a plain foil, & the tobacco an embossed patterned one. This old foil has a high lead content, & doesn't look or feel like modern types. All of the copies I have seen have used modern type plain 'tin' foil for both, & with a little experience are easy to tell apart.

Mark - I'll take & post some pics of my writing set tomorrow for you. Feel free to PM me if you want some larger resoution ones subsequently.....

Chris P

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Chris!

Good to hear from you.

HRH Queen Alexandra had previous form; I attach a photo of a Rowntrees chocolate tin sent to troops in South Africa at Christmas, 1902.

The Suffolk Regiment Museum have a Great War QA cigarette tin, complete with contents. From memory it is a 1914 tin like Pauls.

I also attach pics of the nurses chocolates, the contents of the writing set (I'd like to know what the pencil should be like), the tinder lighter and a couple of pipes, a "Royal Christmas Card Wallet Frame" made for Sailors to keep their version of the Christmas card from the King and Queen by the Ellbee Novelty Company, Worship Street, London to cash in on the popularity of the Christmas Gifts (this one was owned by L/Stoker Alf Bateman of HMS Victorious), one of the double height boxes (I'd often heard that two tins were packed in each box but the space for the additional gifts makes more sense - although the scarves may have been a bit of a squeeze!) and a packet of Acid Drops (actually a very close repro one made for the Khaki Chums' 1999 Christmas Truce commemoration - copied from the National Army Museum original for which they paid the £800 (+ commission) that you mentioned!).

I have one of the 1914 Cadburys chocolate tins for the wounded too. It would be good to see some photos of other variations.

Cheers,

Taff

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[Chris P]

Taff:

Ooh.. Lovely.. I am envious of your Nurses' chocolate. Please may I have some more pics? And I don't suppose you have any more of those repros? I do wish, with hindsight, I'd have pushed the boat out for the original.

Anyhow, some pics of my writing set, Issued to a wounded soldier in the 4th Northern general hospital, Leeds, & with the less common version of the King & Queens card - " May you soon be restored to health, etc"

Chris P

[Chris P]

And the pencil close up:

[Chris P]

It looks to me like your pencil is correct with the case as it should be, just a little shorter;

Here's a couple of pics of the 1915 Cadburys gift for the wounded:

[Chris P]

And the contents of same;

[Chris P]

This gift was issued to JS Howe, Comm. officer, HMS Ariadne. He lodged in a house in Porstmouth at one time during the war, left this & never returned to pick it up. It remained there until I purchased it a few years ago;

[Chris P]

Here's another gift, this one kept & professionally framed at the time. Another sailors gift - note the navy version of the K & Q xmas postcard. ( curiously, the navy gift in the last post had an army card with it).

A Plymouth framers address to the back is another clue... By the amount of complete survivors, the gifts were obviously highly thought for their souvenir value.

Worth mentioning also that the K & Q xmas card did not form part of the Princess Mary gift, but was a separate issue.

[mark holden]

Chris P Chief Chum,

Very many thanks. Are the pipes in any way marked to indicate Xmas gifts?

regards

Mark

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Mark,

No, as far as I know none of them were marked in any way (although the silver bands often have a hallmark which is useful in telling if the pipe is the right age). The pipes were all bought commercially, from many different suppliers, which is why there is such a huge variation in styles.

Chris,

I will try to find the time to take a few more photos of the nurses chocolate for you. I felt the same about it as you did about the Acid Tablet but decided that I might not see another so took the plunge!

Cracking Cadburys tin. I will dig mine out and photograph that too.

A lot of people have asked about repro Acid Tablets. They were quite a hard job to make. My poor old Mum managed to boil up several pounds of acid drops (not an easy job as they really do have to boil to become liquid enough to pour into greaseproof paper-lined moulds. We made seven of them for the non-smoking Chums (and four of the smokers sets too). The hardest part was the wrapper. The original NAM one appeared to be wrapped in a thin paper similar to newsprint with the text printed straight on top. I matched the paper but it was a real battle managing to get it to feed into the printer. I managed one sheet in every twenty. The rest either slipped so the text was not straight or the printer screwed it up. If I can dig out the template and any more of the paper I will make a few more. At least they provide a space filler for the gift most of us are very unlikely to ever own.

Cheers,

Taff

[Chief_Chum]

Blimey! The battered tin with battered contents, and less than a full packet of cigarettes, finally reached £340.00.

Even allowing for the rarity (appropriate use of the word in this case!) of the VTC patch, that's an awful lot of money.

Glad I bought my patch (from a dealer) when I did.