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AndyR

Serres Road Kilo & Struma Valley Locations

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AndyR

Hi

It seems to be a common question of where various kilo posts were on the Salonica - Serres Road

I've estimated a few distances to the main places along the route using the Get Directions function on Google Maps

The CWGC gives the Struma Military Cemetery as being near Kilo 71 near Kalokastro and the estimate suggests 71.9 km so I don't think I'm too far out

Most of the stops don't seem to have been at particular places but were rather near the marker and so I don't think it's a problem if there's no place at a particular kilo stone

I've added the current place names (as given on Google maps) and the WW1 map place names where there seems to be a tie up - though of course there are alterenative names and spellings for both lists. Please note that some places (e.g. Dremiglava) weren't actually on the road and the distance I've given are to the place.

WW1.............Google Maps..........km

....................Anthoupoli.............10.4

Dremiglava....Drymos................19.3

Guvezne........Assiros.................25.5

....................Dorkada...............38.3

Likovan.........Xylopoli................48.5

Lahana..........Lachanas..............53.5

....................Evangelistria.........57.6

....................Kefalochori...........62.3

Gorazana......Kalokastro............71.9

Orljak...........Strymoniko..........76.9

Yenikoy.........Provatas..............82.7

The next list is just the place names as far as I can tell for a few places in the Struma valley vicinity

Sakavca...................Livadochori

Karadzakoy Zir.........Monoklissia

Karadzakoy Bala.......Ano Kamila

Nevoljen...................Vamvakia

Kalendra...................Kala Dendra

Topalova..................Nea Tyroloi

Elisan.......................Karperi

Prosenik...................Skotoussa

Kjupri.......................Gefyroudi

Ormanli....................Dasochori

Barakli Dzuma..........Iraklia

Kopriva....................Chimarros

Paprat......................Pontokerassea

Mirova......................Eliniko

Can anyone confirm / correct / add to the list?

Thanks

AndyR

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apwright

Very good Andy!

I've overlaid a 1:50,000 period map of the Lahana area, which shows the kilometre marks, on Google Earth, and your mileages are pretty close.

e.g.

Kilo 52 is the bend in the road in Lahana at 40.963841 23.203325.

Kilo 56 is the junction in Evangelistria at 40.983879 23.236916.

(There was no village at Evangelistria in 1916)

One small correction to your list:

Karadzakoy Zir and Karadzakoy Bala together = Monoklissia

Hristian Kamila = Ano Kamila

And your "Gorazana" should read Gorazanli - the last two letters are unclear on the Austrian maps.

Also:

Osman Kamila = Kato Kamila

Ηomondos = Mitroussi

Komaryan = Koumaria

etc.

Adrian

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AndyR

Thanks Adrian

From your information it appears my values are a little high

Found the problem was that Google was putting a small kink in the route early on at Lagyna when going from the E90 to the E79

No doubt its the best way to drive the route today but it was adding a small detour

I've reworked the distances removing the detour and they now agree almost exactly with your values

Dremiglava....Drymos................18.8

Guvezne........Assiros.................24.8

....................Dorkada...............36.4

Likovan.........Xylopoli................46.6

Lahana..........Lachanas..............51.7

....................Evangelistria.........55.8

....................Kefalochori...........60.5

Gorazana......Kalokastro............70.1

Orljak...........Strymoniko..........74.8

Yenikoy.........Provatas..............80.9

Thanks again and I hope the information is useful to others

Regards

AndyR

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Rockdoc

This is great work, gents, and will be very useful indeed.

A caveat: although it won't make a lot of difference for most purposes, it needs to be remembered that the use of place-names or Kilo markers does not mean that was the precise location. They were convenient pegs to hang the War Diary entries on but the true site could be some way away. One of the simplest examples is the AA Sections, where the guns would be sited on high-points that would almost always be well off the road. A specific example is the gun - first manned by 98th and later by 74th AA Sections - sited nominally at Lahana and invariably referred to as such. It was near the 49 Kilo point so was actually sited about half-way between Likovan and Lahana. Likewise, the gun at Guvesne (manned by 98th and 141st) was not at all close to the village but on a nearby plateau, as shown by this photo.

198th_AAS_GUNQhick_Tweaks-1.jpg

Just how far the gun was from the village can be gleaned from a report of 3rd September 1918, when a Bulgarian kite balloon broke free in a storm and drifted near Guvesne. 141st received permission for fire at it and brought it down. The OC immediately took the Section's Douglas motorcycle to reach the balloon but, even so, only just prevented villagers 'salvaging' it.

Keith

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sionyn

Hi,

For some considerable time now, I've also been trying to figure out where all the kilo-stone markers were, but can never get exact locations for all the places mentioned in my grandfathers diaries, so I'll be following this thread with great interest.

The attached image is from "My dearest Mamma and Papa.." (1914-1918 war letters of Octavius C Moore Haines)" [barbara Beck (1994)] (plate xi) and shows 25CCS which straddles the Salonica-Seres road at 26.7kilo (Guvezne)- the marker stone is shown on the road adjacent to the stores.

(also shows Guvezne Military Cemetery and a ravine which might help to place it accurately)

(image cropped slightly to reduce file size <100kb)

Hope this helps

Sion

post-15646-1271331211.jpg

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Rockdoc

There is an area just to the north of Guvesne (Assiros) on Google Earth - about 40deg 50 minutes N, 23 deg 1 minute E - where there a watercourse close to the Seres road.

Keith

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sionyn

Hi,

Here is the same plan again in close-up and including a bend in the road which I'd inadvertantly cropped off last time.

Sion

post-15646-1271338032.jpg

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apwright

I don't have a detailed map of Guvesne, but measuring up from Kilo 15 (the bridge at 40.761562 22.992003), then Kilo 26 is quite a way north of Assiros/Guvesne.

By my calculations, that sharp left-hander on your drawing is the bend at 40.856506 23.031129, where the road has since been straightened. I reckon the farm track that opens onto the old part of the road at 40.855709 23.030797 is where your drawing says "Entrance" just above the Sisters' Quarters.

A bit about Guvesne - if anyone's interested:

Turkish Güvesne/Güvezne/Gjuvezna/Giouvesna etc., Greek Assiros, Bulgarian Gvozdovo.

Originally located closer to the road, until destroyed by the Turks. Then gradually reestablished in the 17th Century in the more sheltered (and less obvious to passing marauders) valley of the gorge.

Population in 1900: 360 Turkish Muslims, 500 Greek Christians. Largely destroyed by an earthquake in June 1902.

The Ancient name Assiros (in use from c.2000 BC up to the Ottoman Conquest in 1453 AD) was permanently readopted in 1926.

Many of the locals nowadays are descendants of refugees evicted from the Gallipoli Peninsula during (and even before) the Balkan Wars - hence nearby Krithia (formerly Yenikoi - another one!). During WW1 they were housed in camps along the Lembet Road - along with the more numerous refugees from Bulgaria and Serbia - but were settled here later to make room for all the new refugees of the 1920s.

Adrian

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gerryl

I would love to see a close up of the rest of the hospital map. Could you be so kind???

Gerryl

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apwright

For the sake of completeness, here's an aerial view of the "Railhead at Güvesne", according to the caption in Heydemarck's War Flying in Macedonia (oddly, it's listed as "Railhead at Ambar Keui" in the Table of Contents...).

post-16303-1272991322.jpg

Left is north-ish. It's almost an extension southwards of the map of 25 CCS posted by Sion above.

The bend in the road on the photo is the bend at 40.84494 23.02299 on Google Earth, and the network of paths below the road in the photo line up exactly with the patchwork of small fields west of the modern road.

Adrian

EDIT: P.S. Sion, thanks for the pointer to Haines' War Letters. I've just received a copy from abebooks and very interesting it is too! I know that Gerry (gerryl) has also ordered a copy, so there's no need for you to repost the map. :)

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Guest Charles Harker

Hello Andy R,

I have been looking through my grandfather's (Lt. Kenneth Farr Harker, 67th SASAC) "Salonika" photo album with a view to trying to make contact with various named individuals whom my grandfather photo'd in 1917 - I have only just joined the Forum, so I haven't found the best way to progress in this - and have noted that he entered the Kilo reference for a few of the photos.

No1 Rest Camp, Kilo 12 1/2 Serres Road

Lickovan Bridge, Kilo 56

No 6 Rest Camp, Kilo 56

{ Picture of Kilo 54 Serres Road} - but place not identified.

Not many - but I hope they may be of assistance

Kind regards

Charles Harker

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AndyR

Hi

Does anyone know what the kilo markers looked like?

Are some of them still there?

Thanks

Andy

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Superjock

Great work Andy, Adrian and Rockdoc and many thanks (thus far - but please read on!).

 

        I'm planning to retrace the steps of a great-uncle who served with 2nd Cheshires in 1917/18 when, according to their war diaries and a sketch in 'the History of the Cheshire Regiment in the Great War' (attached), they were in trenches to the east and west of Lozista. Lozista is shown on the AH-AH map reached by the link kindly provided by Rockdoc in Topic 16224 on 7 April 2011. It would appear to be to the west of the southern end of Lake Butkovo. Lozhishta (slightly different spelling) is also shown on the Map of the MacedonianCampaign (Official History of the War - Military Operations - Macedoniia - Map 2 (part 1)(also attached). I'm unable to place Lozista/Lozhishta on a modern map (the largest scale I've been able to find is admittedly only 1:200,000) or on Google maps. I've also looked at the maps in the National Archives but couldn't find any showing Lozista and The Cheshires Museum were likewise unable to help. Adrian mentions that he has a 1:50,000 period map of Lahana and I wondered if he also had one for this area or could tell me where I can access one, please?? I guess it's possible that Lake Butkovo has expanded since WW1 and swallowed up Lozista but wondered if anyone could help me locate it on a modern map, please???

      

       In April 2018, the 2nd Cheshires carried out an operation (later subject to a Board of Inquiry instigated by General Milne) from Lozista crossing the Struma over a bridge at Kopriva (now Chimarros - thanks for new name, Andy) which is marked on various period maps and referenced in the War Diaries but I'm likewise unable to see this bridge on a contemporary map or Google maps. If there isn't a modern day bridge, does anyone know what happened to it, please: perhaps it was a (?Bailey/similar) bridge constructed by the Brits and has long since disappeared???

      

       My great-uncle's platoon took up positions in Barakli, just to the east of Barakli Dzuma, which is now called Valtero, if Andy wants to add it to his very helpful list of modern day names. They were forced to withdraw after suffering 50% casualties but my great-uncle held off the enemy single-handedly with a machine gun while his men withdrew, thus not losing a single man to the enemy. I'm proud to say he got an MC, MiD and was awarded the Serbian Royal Order of the White Eagle, 5th class - with swords, but like so many others, contracted malaria once before this operation and for a second time later in 1918 as a result of which he had to be repatriated to the UK for his pains.

 

       Finally, can anyone confirm that what was called Kumli is now called Ammoudia, please???

 

 

 

 

Map from page 211 of History of the Cheshire Regiment in the Great War by Arthur Crookenden.pdf

Map of the Macedonian Campaign (Official History of the War - Military Operations - Macedonia - Map 2 (part))(Printed 1916).jpg

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Gardenerbill

Hi Superjock,

Welcome to the forum, many of the original posters in this topic are no longer active on the forum, however Adrian visits fairly regularly and as he lives in Salonika he is your best bet for help with the locations. The 1:50.000 scale map he mentions is probably one of the trench maps, these can be obtained on a CD from the Salonika Campaign Society, and there is definitely one for the area you are interested in, but I don't think they are available on-line.

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JulianR
6 hours ago, Superjock said:

  In April 2018, the 2nd Cheshires carried out an operation (later subject to a Board of Inquiry instigated by General Milne) from Lozista crossing the Struma over a bridge at Kopriva (now Chimarros - thanks for new name, Andy) which is marked on various period maps and referenced in the War Diaries but I'm likewise unable to see this bridge on a contemporary map or Google maps. If there isn't a modern day bridge, does anyone know what happened to it, please: perhaps it was a (?Bailey/similar) bridge constructed by the Brits and has long since disappeared???

The bridge would have been built by one of the RE Field Companies and would be constructed from wood.  Bailey bridges were not invented until WW2.  It will have no doubt disappeared soon after the war, even if it was not taken up so the material could be used elsewhere.  The RE Corps History will not doubt refer.  RE Corps History below, appears to have been a pre-war bridge.

 

Julian

Edited by JulianR

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JulianR

From Vol. 6 of RE Corps History, 

 

During the winter of 1916/17 the Struma bridges were strengthened to make them proof against floods and scouring.
Hall’s Bridge in the Neohori gorge was replaced in order to carry heavy artillery,  
The river-bed was rocky and the 14-in. square timber piles, four to a bent, could only be driven 6 ft. but lasted
well. The bridge, excluding a central island, was 750 ft. long, with timber girders and was opened on 28th April, having taken seven
weeks to build.
Gudeli Bridge, also built by the 17th Company, was 288 ft. long on 6-in. square piles to carry field artillery.
Komaryan Bridge, existing pre-war, would carry field guns, but was later replaced during the following winter by a bridge to carry
the heaviest artillery, and even tanks in case they arrived. It was on 12-inch square piles and had composite girders made of timber and
sheet iron. *  (See REJ April 1921 for a full description)
Wessex Bridge, built in sixteen days by the 1st Wessex Company, had 12-in. square piles and was later strengthened by the use of
timber girders to carry 11-ton loads.
Orlyak Bridge was the pre-war crossing for the Seres road and was never replaced or strengthened, but required constant repairs
as it was under enemy artillery observation. It was 450 ft. long and would take 3-tonners.
Cuckoo Bridge, three miles above Orlyak, was built in January by the 10th Division to carry field guns.
Kopriva Bridge, a pre-war crossing, would take 3-tonners but was repaired and re-decked.
Artillery Bridge, two miles above Koyriva, was made flood-proof with piles, the deck being raised z ft. and strengthened to carry
3-tonners.

 

Julian

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Gardenerbill

Hi Superjock,

Some of the place names you mentioned are on the SCS Trench maps:

Lozista (Lozhista) - probably on the Butkovo maps 1:20000 and 1:50000 but I can't find it in the index will look on the map when I get home.

Bridge at Kopriva is on the Dragos 1:20000 map and the Orljak 1:50000 map

Barakli and Barakli Dzuma are on the Elisan 1:20000 and the Orljak 1:50000 map there is also Barakli Bridge on the Elsian 1:20000 map.

If you join the SCS you get a discount on the trench map CD.

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apwright

Ložišta/Lozhishta was renamed Mesolofos in 1927, but then was gradually abandoned after the dam was built at Lithotopos in 1932, flooding most of its farmland. All that remains is the church (of the Transfiguration) at 41.190, 23.086.
 

Adrian

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Gardenerbill

Lozista is on the Bashanli 1:20000 map.

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Superjock

Dear Mark, Julian and Adrian,

Thank you very much for your respective replies, all of which are very helpful and thanks for going to the trouble of providing such comprehensive info.

As you spotted, I'm a new boy at this and thought the notifications came through by email rather than on this site so apologies for the slow acknowledgement.

I shall now cross Kopriva Bridge off my list of specific places to visit but will still visit the area to get a feel for the ground.

I've just ordered the DVD maps from the SCS. I hadn't done so before because when I looked at the names of the maps on their website, the names/descriptions didn't seem to help much, apart from the Bairakli Dzuma one which I'd seen at the National Archives. Thanks to your posts, I now realise that there are others well worth investigating - again, thank you for all your help.

Superjock (aka Iain)

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keithmroberts

Hi Iain   welcome to the forum. You can "follow" this topic, which will generate email notification of replies, but please only use that to bring you back into the main parts of the forum. We all learn from some replies.

 

Keith

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JulianR

The CRE 28th Division stated in his fortnightly progress report for 7th March, 1917 to CE XVI Corps, that an armoured car had been built and placed on the railway at M.H.  I have looked at CRE's War Dairy and cannot see anything in there.  Nor can I find M.H. on the 1:20,000 maps from the Salonika Campaign Society either Lahana or Orljak

 

Where is M.H?

 

Thanks

 

Julian100_3166.JPG.1aba72e7675b586b219938b24dd97f7b.JPG

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MerchantOldSalt

Julian

Look at either of the Butkova maps MH is marked on both on other maps it appears as Radile. Sidirochori now?

 

Tony

MH.JPG

Edited by MerchantOldSalt

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JulianR

Tony,

 

Many thanks, that was a very long way from where I thought it was.

 

Julian

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