West Yorkshire Regiments

[CynthiaK]

Two of my great uncles were killed in the France in 1916. As I am planning a trip to the battle fields I am trying to find the specific action they were involved in which resulted in their deaths.

Frederick Blackwell: Duke of Wellington's West Riding Regiment 10th battalion: Private 19279 died of his wounds on 31st August, 1916. He is buried in Ballieul Communal Cemetry.

Alfred Blackwell: Prince of Wales Own West Yorkshire Regiment 10th battalion: Private 28745 was killed in action on 2nd November, 1916. He is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

I have been unable to find details of exactly where each of them was deployed at the time of their deaths.

Also as both brothers served in service battalions, is it likely that they would have had the chance of serving/ socialising together at any stage?

Any iinformation would be very much appreciated.

[sotonmate]

CK

They were both in the same Battalion so likely to have seen each other,though it is a question of how long they served together. They may have been in the same Company of the 10th.

Frederick seems to have been wounded at the Battle of Pozieres (23 Jul to 3 Sept) part of the Battles of the Somme. Bailleul was an area behind the fighting where casualties were evacuated to Casualty Clearing Stations,and on losing his life he would have been buried nearby.

Alfred would have been in the Battle of Le Transloy (1 to 18 October) again one of the Somme series, and whilst not in a set battle at the time of his death may have been a victim of the day-to-day trench action of shelling/sniping/raiding.

The 10 DOW West Riding Regt were part of 69 Brigade of 23 Division if you want to trace their actions,through the LLT at top left of this page.

You might get to read their War Diary which is at Kew under WO95/2184,which will give some detail on their positions on the days of wounding/death.It is digital and you can download it from the NA Catalogue for 3.50.

Sotonmate

Edit: my apologies for stating they were the same Regiment,must read more slowly ! Thanks Roger !

[Roger Thompson]

Sorry Cynthia and Tony, they are completly different Regiments, but both in the same Battalion number.

One is the Duke of Wellington's Regiment, The West Riding Regiment(WRR).

The other is the Prince of Wales Own Regiment, The West Yorkshire Regiment(WYR).

Cheers Roger.

[mmm45]

With thanks to Dave Stowe for the info here:

LES BOEUFS. TRENCHES

NOV 1st The situation was fairly quiet during the morning but after NOON the Reserve Trenches were heavily shelled. The conditions in the FRONT and SUPPORT Trenches became worse owing to incessant rains. 2nd Lieut J.H. CLOUGHLEY was sent down sick, The casualty return was 8 Other Ranks killed and 35 Other Ranks wounded - nearly all shell wounds.

NOV 2nd The situation was quiet in the morning but during the day the enemy shelled the whole of the sector occupied by the Battalion. The shelling was particularly intense whilst working parties were moving at dusk. The Battalion was ordered to join ZENITH Trench to the left of the new trench made by the Unit on the right of the Battalion Sector. The work was commenced at dusk and continued by the relieving Battalion. The relief of the Battalion by the 7th EAST YORKSHIRE REGT, which was ordered to take place during the night 2nd/3rd was commenced. The casualty return was:- 3 Other Ranks killed, 1 Other Rank died of wounds and 27 Other Ranks wounded.

I may have the 10th West Ridings diary but am away from files at present can check late today

http://westernfrontassociation.com/

Dave has a lot of work on the 10th West Yorkshire Regiment on the Forum part of the above link.

Ady

[Chris Noble]

Hi Cynthia, and welcome to the Forum.

As Ady has posted, Dave has conducted extensive research on the 10th West Yorkshires.

I will just add this from Everard Wyrall's History that may explain the most trying conditions the battalion had to endure at this period of the Somme battle.

29th October, 1916.

'When, on the 29th October, the 10th West Yorkshires (17th Division) moved up to the trenches N. of Lesboeufs, and relieved the 2nd Battalion of the Regiment (8th Division), the conditions in that part of the line were appalling. An officer of the 50th Infantry Brigade Headquarters described the relief in the following vivid terms:- "The leading battalions of the 50th Infantry Brigade, (which included the 10th West Yorkshires) moved from Mansell Copse straight to the front line. The going was very bad, traffic congestion and control regulations seperated the Lewis-gun limbers from their companies, and from Ginchy onwards the way lay across a filthy wilderness of shell holes and sloppy mud, which grew worse nearer the front. Outgoing battalions (2nd West Yorkshires and other battalions of the 23rd Infantry Brigade) were in a state of utter exhaustion, having being engaged in costly local attacks, and there was the utmost difficulty in effecting a relief with incoming troops, themselves in great distress. This relief, the hardest ever done by the Brigade, was not carried through till 6.30 a.m., and daylight revealed the full beastliness of the surroundings. If the mud of the (Ypres) Salient had been bad, this was even worse: trenches deemed impossible there, were here the normal places of habitation. The mire in the front lines was hip deep, and could only be dealt with by hand; neither spades nor scoops were of any use. Men became imprisoned and could not be released, in some cases for over twenty four hours. Hot drinks depended on a precarious and improvised supply of 'Tommy Cookers.' With power of physical resistance lowered by exposure, the fight against trench feet became more difficult and many of the new drafts were not hardened. The trenches themselves were a maze and the line intricate; men of different units and even strange divisions, hopelessly lost, were adopted for the night until they could be sent off by daylight."

The above, included by Wyrall, is taken from the History Of The 50th Infantry Brigade.

Wyrall continues:

'Under these awful conditions, with brief respites of relief and rest, the 10th West Yorkshires spent the remainder of the year. No attack was made by the Battalion during this period, but casualties from shell fire, and ever-active snipers were many. From 29th October to 11th November, the Battalion suffered 170 casualties, including one officer killed, (Second-Lieut. I.P. Waterhouse, by a sniper on 8th November), and one missing. On the 11th December, Lieut.-Col. G.H. Soames left the Battalion, handing over command to Major P.R. Simner of the 9th Duke Of Wellington's R. The 50th Brigade also had a new Commander, Brigadier-General Yatman assuming command on the 5th December. On the 31st December, the Battalion was relieved in the line by the 7th east Yorkshire, and marched back to Camp 22 on the Carnoy - Montauban Road.'

There you go Cynthia. The Le Transloy Ridges as this part of the Somme battlefield are known, are one of the most 'awful' places i have ever visited on the Western Front. I have frequently stood, as a good vantage point, at the Caribou Memorial located at Gueudecourt viewing the landscape in the winter months. The thought of what men went through up there, well, if there is a Hell, it must have been 'up there.'

Have a safe journey and a rewarding experience following in Alfred's footsteps.

Ca Ira!

Chris.

[kenf48]

Ray Westlake's Tracing Battalions on the Somme has the 10th Bn Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment) 'Entrained at Pont-Remy for Bailleul (16/8) and from there marched to Meteren."

The Bn next moved on the 11/9, in the absence of the war diary (for now), that's probably where Fred was. btw if you click on the link for the cemetery (in red at the bottom of the CWGC entry) you will see a list of the Casualty Clearing Stations who used the cemetery, it was probably in one of those where he died.

The Bn was part of 69th Brigade 29th Division http://www.1914-1918.net/britdivs.htm

btw (2) it's very unlikely they would have served together. "Service' in this context means a New Army Bn see LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/kitcheners.htm

Alf's Bn was part of 50th Brigade 17th (Northern) Division http://www.1914-1918.net/britdivs.htm

Ken

[imd6662]

10th Dukes, late August 1916: from the War Diary -- which is one of the digitised ones at Kew -- look for 23 Div 69 Bde.(not verbatim)

On 25 August the battalion was ordered to relieve the 8thy KOYLI in trenches at Ploegsteert, including a NEW TRENCH they had just helped dig!

Weather for the reaminder of the month was showery and little action with only light and ineffective artillery and small arms fire exchanged. Few casualties.

A (British) gas attack was carried out on 31 August, having to have been postponed from two days before due to unfavourable winds.

Not a lot of help I'm afraid. Of course given that your man died of wounds it';s hard to know how long since they had been sustained. His service records would help of they exist.

[mmm45]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.a...ckwell&cr=1

Cynthia his wife was Daisy and lived in Yeadon Leeds

11 pages of Freds record survives. including a letter from his wife requesting a replacement scroll which was lost at the picture framers and was not replaced

He was wounded and died the same day 31/8/16 At 1st Canadian clearing station..plenty of info within the 11 pages

Ady

[kenf48]

Apologies for the typo mistake the 10th Bn was 69th Brigade 23rd Division (there was no 29th), however it was unlikely they were in Ploegsteert at the time of Fred's death as he was laid to rest in Bailleul.

A tragic service record, they're often sad but some more than others.

Ken

[imd6662]

10th Dukes arrived at Bailleul on 14 August and marched to Metrien and thence on to Steenwerck.

On 18 August, Battalion moved to relief 32 Royal Fusiliers in reserve trenches at Ploegsteert. On the 20th the Battalion was ordered to dig a new trench for 400 yards south from Prowse Point. This was carried out on 21/22 August with some casualties. The NEW trench was to be called WEST RIDING TRENCH.

Subsequently the Bn was ordered to change position with 11 W Yorks. ON 24th August, ordered to relief 8 KOYLI as previously posted.

On 31 Aug the only casualties were incurred when the gas "liberated on our right sector of our division passed over a portion of the new trench, causing us 3 casualties, one of whom has since died. This happened in spite of the most rigorous precautions"

Presumably the fatality was Fred Blackwell who must have been cleared to the Canadian Casualty Clearing Station.

[kenf48]

Unfortunately I can't read the "Location" (of wounding) don't know if it matches anything you have but the record definitely shows date of the event as 30.8.16. (date of Report made on 31.8.16)

Ken

[imd6662]

Gas attack took place at 1.30am on 31 August. 30 August was a "particularly quiet" day.

However, just to add to the uncertainty, two fatalities are recorded on CWGC for the 10th Dukes on 31 August, the other being Pte 17840 John Thompson, buried in Berks Cemetery Extension.

So he could have been the man killed by the gas.

As another thought, perhaps wounded while attached to a working party elsewhere? (The Bn had been prioviding working patires to the Royal Engineers on a daily basis preivously).

[CynthiaK]

Gas attack took place at 1.30am on 31 August. 30 August was a "particularly quiet" day.

However, just to add to the uncertainty, two fatalities are recorded on CWGC for the 10th Dukes on 31 August, the other being Pte 17840 John Thompson, buried in Berks Cemetery Extension.

So he could have been the man killed by the gas.

As another thought, perhaps wounded while attached to a working party elsewhere? (The Bn had been prioviding working patires to the Royal Engineers on a daily basis preivously).

[CynthiaK]

Excellent information, thanks you all. I'm planning to visit Kew in mid April so will look up the appropriate references there. Thanks again, Cynthia

[kenf48]

I think you may be right about Thompson being the man who was gassed, he is in the right place at Berks Cemetery.

I think your working party idea is reasonable, Fred only joined the Bn in early July so would have got the 'new guy' jobs! A quick search for August on Geoff's (Wonderful) Search Engine shows Fred is the only soldier from the 10th Bn buried at Bailleul (the majority of the remainder are at the Berks Cemetery with one at Rouen which will be the base hospital. As the diary says a 'quiet time' considering the Regiment lost over 500 in July.

Cynthia not sure what else you expect to find at Kew as you have the diaries etc but good luck

[CynthiaK]

Thanks Ken,

I'm going to Kew to chase up a few other family records, so thought I'd just see if the records here were full or extracts and look up the record in the War Diary suggested by Sotonmate (WO95/2184).

I also my grandfather, Francis Blackwell (Alf and Fred's brother) also served, but I haven't tracked him down yet. I believe he was taken a prisoner of war at one stage. I can only imagine the situation at the parental home in Yeadon, with two sons dead and a third a POW.

Ady also mentions 11 pages of Fred's service record which survives, so I need to get more info on that. I am not signed up to Ancestry, but do have a subscription to Find My Past.

[shirley23]

Hi Cynthia

My gr grandfather was also in the West Yorkshire 10th and died on 1 July 1916 at Fricourt

there is information on my replies which may help you.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=141901

[mmm45]

Hi Cynthia

I have some images of Yeadon War Memorial and Roll of Honour that Dave Stowe has asked me to pass.

I need you to PM me an email address to send them

Ady

[kenf48]

Ady also mentions 11 pages of Fred's service record which survives, so I need to get more info on that. I am not signed up to Ancestry, but do have a subscription to Find My Past.

Remember Ancestry do a free 14 day trial, or the library edition can be accessed at most public libraries for free, poor old Fred's widow and her 10 bob pension is quite moving

Ken

[CynthiaK]

Thanks Ady, for the offer of the Yeadon memorial images. I tried to send you a PM with my e-mail address, but can't get the facility on this site to work. Actually I have seen the memorial in the past as I had relatives in Yeadon until recently, sadly that was before I took much interest in the family's history so I didn't take much notice at the time. If only ................

[kenf48]

I tried to send you a PM with my e-mail address, but can't get the facility on this site to work.

Hi again, you need 10 posts before you can use the pm facility - keep asking questions, and you'll soon be there

Ken

[Chris Noble]

Hi Cynthia.

If you click on this link, Dave has posted on the Western Front Association Forum with his compliments.

http://frontforum.westernfrontassociation....f=29&t=1382

Kindest regards,

Chris.

[CynthiaK]

Thanks Dave for the images and also to Chris, Ady et al. Amazing how many surnames from my childhood are on the memorial alongside Alf and Fred Blackwell. The Eastwood and Denison families were all familiar to me as a child - an amazing number of deaths for a small, close community such as Yeadon. Thought provoking to say the least.

Cynthia