Doughboys Weapon of Choice

[shippingsteel]

This thread has turned out to be one of the best of it's type around on the subject(s). I've enjoyed the give and take on clean level here !.

I'm glad you could join us and thanks for adding your thoughts into the mix. Unguarded opinions are hard to find and most definitely appreciated around here. I also think you've managed to cover all the major rifles under discussion here so you've done very well. Thanks again for your comments.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

The serial on the one I saw was a B prefix and in the 1400 range. Same Steyr markings. Same crest.

I am fairly certain it has no British connection BUT might be a nice "placeholder"....

So after a bit of bartering and horse trading.......

The rifle is all matching with an immaculate bore

And just for Mr S>S (The bayonet and scabbard match which is relatively unusual and are a couple of hundred off the serial of the rifle)

If I dig out my Guernsey and flat cap I can restage TonyE's picture

This is probably in Mr GEW98's area of expertise...I am looking forward to shooting this - it appears to be essentially a GEW98 in 7mm

Chris

Edit: Picture title amended

[shippingsteel]

That's all very nice Chris - or should I say exceptionally nice. I might add that I am feeling more than a little jealous. Both the woodwork and the metalwork on that thing look amazing.!!

Now I don't want to throw TOO much cold water over you, but could you just refresh our memory as to which part of the GW these weapons actually took part in.?? Remember its all about those pesky details - like which front the Chileans were fighting on, and how many would have seen service in the frontline.!! The South American theatre of conflict surprisingly received little press that I know of - must have been suppressed under the official secret's act or something.!!

PS. Did you get that post about the Ross scabbard in the Equipment section.?

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

Now now, S>S!

That is a very nice example of the type of rifle some auxiliary units of the Royal Navy were armed with during the war.

As for the South American theatre of conflict, what about the battles of Coronel and the Falkland Islands?

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

TonyE just to set me back on the "straight and narrow" could you please bring me up to speed on the Steyr story.

I understand that the Austrian town of Steyr was an important industrial centre for the manufacture of weaponry of various kinds.

Perhaps somewhat similar to the industrial hub of Solingen in Germany which was reknown for its workmanship in swords and bayonets.

Is it technically correct to refer to these early Mausers as Steyr rifles.? From my understanding they were made by the firm of OEWG in Steyr.

Not quite sure exactly how all those firms worked together, but was wondering if it was a similar story as found in Solingen. Nobody calls them Solingen bayonets, but made by a certain maker of Solingen. Can you fill in the gaps here.?

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

As for the South American theatre of conflict, what about the battles of Coronel and the Falkland Islands?

Regards

TonyE

Aahh... I think they might have been in the South Atlantic theatre, TonyE.!?

(Not too sure on my naval history but I think those battles might well have been fought in the Atlantic Ocean.!!)

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

The Falklands was in the South Atlantic, but Coronel took place in the Pacific Ocean.

The (somewhat tentative) connection is that Coronel is a Chilean port and after the battle Spee took his cruisers into Valparaiso to refuel.

Cheers

TonyE

[TonyE]

TonyE just to set me back on the "straight and narrow" could you please bring me up to speed on the Steyr story.

I understand that the Austrian town of Steyr was an important industrial centre for the manufacture of weaponry of various kinds.

Perhaps somewhat similar to the industrial hub of Solingen in Germany which was reknown for its workmanship in swords and bayonets.

Is it technically correct to refer to these early Mausers as Steyr rifles.? From my understanding they were made by the firm of OEWG in Steyr.

Not quite sure exactly how all those firms worked together, but was wondering if it was a similar story as found in Solingen. Nobody calls them Solingen bayonets, but made by a certain maker of Solingen. Can you fill in the gaps here.?

Cheers, S>S

The DWM group of companies had been founded by Ludwig Loewe in 1896 and also owned Mauser, OEWG, Fabrique Nationale in Liege and Waffen U. Munitionsfarbrik A.G. in Budapest. The Rottweil and RWS powder companies were also part of the group. When orders were received they were allocated to whichever concern was best suited to manufacture them.

The rifles are all Mausers in the sense that they are based on the Mauser patents and designs, but are also refered to as Steyrs or Ludwig Loewes or whatever rifles.

I can't say whether many of the Solingen cutlers were part of the same group in a similar way to DWM, as it is not an area of which I have any knowledge.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

I have modified the title of the picture to reflect both the design and the place of production.

just as an fyi, all the 1895 Chilean Mausers I have seen (many converted into 7.62mm) have Ludwig Loewe banners.

Here is the crest from the side of the butt.

I have not yet fully disassembled the rifle but there is indeed nothing to indicate UK service hence my reference to a "placeholder", I did however recently see an example with a large N stamped on the underside of the wrist which I hope to be able to examine a little more closely.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

I have modified the title of the picture to reflect both the design and the place of production.

Chris

Hey you didn't have to do that Chris - I still think its one of those that noone really knows exactly what to call, with it being a special order by Chile.

I was asking TonyE about it for my own benefit and not insinuating that anything was incorrect (well for once not this time anyway.!)

I was wondering if and when the OEWG firm became the modern well known Steyr corporation that we see around today.

From what I have been reading it sounds like the correct reference might be - Chilean Mauser, Model 1912 in 7mm. With all the special markings on the rifle they must have been produced under contract to fairly exacting specifications. I don't think there are any others around quite like it, so kind of unique to Chile.

EDIT. Have now attached below a contemporary reference from a very good source (which you may recognise.!!)

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

Pretty well every South American country plus many in Europe and the rest of the world ordered Mausers from the DWM group of companies to their own specification, with receiver crests and markings. Have a look at Ball's "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" for info.

See this Brazilian crest on a 7mm M1908 DWM as an example. These were also seized in 1914 by the Royal Navy and pressed into British service.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

See this Brazilian crest on a 7mm M1908 DWM as an example. These were also seized in 1914 by the Royal Navy and pressed into British service.

Regards

TonyE

OOOhhh no! Another one to look for?

BTW S>S it would seem the contemporary reference might be "Chilian" but that would probably count as pedantic so I won't mention it

[TonyE]

I am afraid so. The Brazilians had a battleship called the Rio de Janeiro building at Armstrongs which was launched in 1913, but they could not afford to pay for her so sold her to Turkey. She was renamed Sultan Osman I and was about to be handed over to her Turkish crew, complete with her complement of Brazilian Mausers on 1st August 1914 when she was seized by the British. It is said that this act did much to push Turkey to side with Germany in the war.

Like the Chilean weapons, these were used to arm auxiliary vessels.

Regards

TonyE

[simonharley]

TonyE, you make repeated references to the seizing of the "Almirante Latorre", sometime H.M.S. "Canada". On what do you base the use of the verb to seize?

Simon

[TonyE]

The Almirante Cochrane and Almirante Lattore (both 28,000 ton battleships) were nearing completion in British yards in 1914 when they were taken over by the Royal Navy. Perhaps you would be happier with "Compulsory Purchase" as I do not think the Chileans had much option?

Regards

tonyE

[simonharley]

Well, the "Almirante Latorre" was a year away from completion at the beginning of the war. The British government negotiated a deal amenable to the Chileans and arranged for them to have six submarines as well. The "Almirante Cochrane" had relatively recently been laid down, and was in fact not purchased by the British government until 1918, when the Chilean government was "willing to transfer the ship on terms similar to those agreed in 1914 with respect to the 'Almirante Latorre'" (Wemyss to the War Cabinet, 13 February, 1918). So no, I would not be happier with "Compulsory Purchase."

Simon

[TonyE]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. My interest is primarily in the smallarms though.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

BTW S>S it would seem the contemporary reference might be "Chilian" but that would probably count as pedantic so I won't mention it

Yes I recognised that Chris but left an opening there for you - seemed like the honourable thing to do.!!

I also seemed to remember someone telling me that "repeating an error does not make it any less of an error and knowingly repeating would to my mind compound this".

Anyway I think the correct term at the moment might be "touche" and we'll call it a draw.!!

Cheers, S>S

[Pete1052]

Perhaps somewhat similar to the industrial hub of Solingen in Germany which was reknown for its workmanship in swords and bayonets.

Incidentally, that's a place that was captured by my Dad's division in April 1945. Regrettably he was too busy at the time to stop and ask which manufacturers had been in the bayonet business three decades earlier.

[shippingsteel]

Incidentally, that's a place that was captured by my Dad's division in April 1945. Regrettably he was too busy at the time to stop and ask which manufacturers had been in the bayonet business three decades earlier.

I believe the place (Solingen) was nearly bombed off the face of the planet around that time by US daylight bombing raids, as it was such an integral part of the Axis industrial war effort. Many of the armament businesses situated there never recovered, which in a way is quite sad after they had been around in most cases for hundreds of years practising their skills in producing beautiful swords, sabres and other edged weapons. Such is the cost of war ...

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

I was wondering if and when the OEWG firm became the modern well known Steyr corporation that we see around today.

Been doing a little of my own research in regard to the above question and it would appear that the following is the correct timeline.

"STEYR - Established in Steyr, Austria as Werndl Company in 1863, became Oesterreichische Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft (OEWG) in 1869, after WW1 became Steyr Werke, and in 1934 became Steyr-Daimler-Puch (of which Steyr Mannlicher was a part)".

So it seems that the stamping Waffenfabrik Steyr on the Chilean Mauser is a reference to the division of the company where the rifles were produced.

Chris, would you be able to post your picture of the breech back on the forum please. (Have to admit that shot gave me tingles - reminds me of my pet "swedish babe" in M96.!!)

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Sure, but when you say "back" I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the tang where the receiver is inlet into the stock or the opposite side to the one where the Steyr mark is?

I'll take some pictures this afternoon and hope that I cover the area you are looking for.

Chris

Edit: I had these from the earlier lot I took. Are these what you wanted? if not let me know I will be taking some additional pics today anyway.

Edited 4 May , 2010 by 4thGordons

[shippingsteel]

Sure, but when you say "back" I am not sure what you mean.

I had these from the earlier lot I took. Are these what you wanted? if not let me know I will be taking some additional pics today anyway.

I meant the overhead shot of the breech, that showed up the nice Chilean crest and also that fantastic Mauser locking mechanism.

You originally had it posted between the rifle profile and the bayonet shot. (I really hate it when you change things after the event)

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

I meant the overhead shot of the breech, that showed up the nice Chilean crest and also that fantastic Mauser locking mechanism.

You originally had it posted between the rifle profile and the bayonet shot. (I really hate it when you change things after the event)

Cheers, S>S

Ahh OK, that back. The revised picture was larger than the original so I could not post all three and stay under the 100kb limit. I will try and take another one without the glare.

This one?

[apple]

Can anyone tell me anything about the service history of the M1917 rifles post WW1.? How long did they stay in service with the US Army and would they have been sold out straight into surplus, or did they get tipped on into service with any other nations.?

I am particularly interested in finding out if they would have seen service in the Phillipines, or in any other US operations or minor conflicts between the wars that would have involved jungle fighting. You can find out about the background to this question by checking THIS OTHER THREAD which is running in the Equipment section of the forum.

The mystery item involved here is a green canvas bayonet scabbard or sheath which appears to have been made especially for the P1907 bayonet or one of its American made variants the P1913 or M1917. There has been some discussion about the origins of this item but with no firm conclusions having been established to date. Further knowledgeable input is now required.!!

The complete lack of reference to this style of equipment has made me think that it may have been locally made in the SE Asian theatre as a stopgap replacement for the old original style leather scabbard which would have rapidly decayed in use under jungle conditions. Other nations that may have been using the Enfield rifles or that style of bayonet may also have been involved - it is definitely a mystery item.

Any assistance with this question would be appreciated.

Cheers, S>S

I' m no expert on US WW2 ordnance, which is forgivable on this forum. But, am presently reading a collection of articles John Steinbeck wrote when he was a correspondent during WW2. He wrote one of his articles after travelling across the Atlantic on a troop ship in Mid 43. He wrote that the troops, who were bound for England i.e. not going directly to a combat zone, were equipped with a mix of M1's, M1 carbines, Springfield' s and what he described as Enfield' s, which presumably(possibly) were M1917' s.