shippingsteel Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 I recently picked up a quite nice P1907 bayonet by Chapman dated 1915. Not overly outstanding and also probably re-issued for WW2 but fairly clean. The interesting thing about the purchase was the scabbard and webbing belt that accompanied it. I understand that it is NOT the proper scabbard that should accompany the bayonet but am nonetheless quite intrigued as to who would have used the canvas scabbard and in which era. I am guessing that it is WW2 and most probably for "jungle issue" in either Burma or the Pacific but can not say for sure as I have never come across one like it. The bayonet does sport lashings of jungle green paint on the pommel and looks to have been period sharpened for WW2. Also the scabbard fits it like a glove. I am hoping that some of the webbing equipment specialists may be able to assist me with some advice. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Closeup view of the scabbard, the style of belt hanger does suggest American usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Hello, Shippingsteel - It's an American scabbard for a machete, as used in the Pacific Theater during WWII. It might be postwar. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Hello, Shippingsteel - It's an American scabbard for a machete, as used in the Pacific Theater during WWII. It might be postwar. Regards, Torrey I have a US WWII or near after machete with a scabbard similar to this but it is far broader (to accomodate the broad heavy blade) and without the different colour piping (it is all OD). I'll post a picture tonight - it is hanging in my shed because I actually use it. It also has a metal insert (stiffener) at the throat (sort of an internal locket). This does not look broad enough to me to accomodate a machete blade - and you say it fits the P07 snugly so for me that would make it too narrow. Just looking at it (especially the two tone trim) I would wonder if this might not be a well done home made / after market scabbard. Are there any markings on it? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 It's not a bayonet scabbard, but a post ww2 Jungle Golock/Machette sheath. We were issued with these when we had the Pattern 1958 Web Equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Isn't it a bit long and thin for a golok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Isn't it a bit long and thin for a golok? and a bit narrow for a machete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppertales Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 A machete would never fit in that scabbard. It is much too slender. A machete has a blade that is about 3 inches wide. I have seen one of those scabbards before but I cannot remember where....chris3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Not knowing what one was, I searched Golok on Google Images. In addition to various images of half-naked Golok tribeswomen photographed by a German geographical expedition to Tibet in 1938 , there are illustrations of numbers of different bush knives referred to as goloks that are not that different in profile to a bayonet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2010 If you look very closely at the photo in post #2 you can actually see the outline of where the P1907 has been sitting, so yes it is quite slender and no I don't think a machete would fit. I could not find any markings on the scabbard at all. I'll post another pic to show a bit more detail. The only thing that keeps coming back to me is that the US used the M1917 bayonet right up to Vietnam for their "trench" shotguns so am wondering if that could be what it would be for.?? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Unfortunatelly gentlemen, everyone catagorises a Golock or Machette in the steriotype we all know and have been illustrated. Both come in a variety of styles and sizes to fit the job. We all have our own opinions about an item, and I've been called a few things in connection to my views/knowledge in recent months, so al I'll say is.. each to their own. I can only comment from my own experiance of actual usage on this one. I'll bow of out of this one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2010 Unfortunatelly gentlemen, everyone catagorises a Golock or Machette in the steriotype we all know and have been illustrated. Both come in a variety of styles and sizes to fit the job. We all have our own opinions about an item, and I've been called a few things in connection to my views/knowledge in recent months, so al I'll say is.. each to their own. I can only comment from my own experiance of actual usage on this one. I'll bow of out of this one.... Hang on a minute now, Bootnecks - I need to pick your brain a little more before you do any bowing or such like .... Can you give me any more info on the items you were using in service. Was it Brit or US issue, obviously "jungle issue" and what dates are we talking about here. And in which theatre would it have been used.? Does my last photo still correlate with what you had in mind.? Thanks for your assistance. Hey I might add a shot of the ricasso if you stick around ...!! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 April , 2010 Share Posted 21 April , 2010 The only thing that keeps coming back to me is that the US used the M1917 bayonet right up to Vietnam for their "trench" shotguns so am wondering if that could be what it would be for.?? I believe the M1917s issued with trench-guns during vietnam etc were issued in the plastic/composite/fiberglass (I don't know what the material is, but it is some form of rigid green material that looks like plastic!) scabbards. IIRC it might be referred to as the "M3 scabbard" when used for the long (original length) Garand bayonet Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2010 I believe the M1917s issued with trench-guns during vietnam etc were issued in the plastic/composite/fiberglass (I don't know what the material is, but it is some form of rigid green material that looks like plastic!) scabbards. IIRC it might be referred to as the "M3 scabbard" when used for the long (original length) Garand bayonet Chris I understand what you mean, I do have one of those "green" scabbards marked to the USN. I believe the Marines also used to carry the long M1905 bayonets around the Pacific in them - the extra length was preferred for use in the jungle fighting they encountered. The thing with this canvas "sheath" is that it fits millimetre perfect to the length of the P1907 - as if it was made for it or something very similar. Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2010 Just to remind anyone who may be reading this thread - yes you ARE looking at the Great War forum.!! For those who may still be a little uncertain I will attach a shot of the bayonet ricasso for proof of its involvement in this case. This is the bayonet that came with the canvas sheath and webbing belt - yes obviously a little out of its era, however these bayonets certainly did have quite a lifespan in service, so who knows.? (It also may be just enough to entice Bootnecks back into the discussion so that we may prise a little more info from him.!!) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 April , 2010 Share Posted 22 April , 2010 Any reissue marks on the other side? Clearance hole in the pommel? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 22 April , 2010 Share Posted 22 April , 2010 I had to cut an acre of grass with an issue Golok when I was a bad boy in the early 70's . I'm told by an ex colleage that golok sheaths in Uk service were usually made (or supplied) by Martindale's so I googled it. http://www.ralphmartindale.co.uk/ralphmart...en-sheaths.html They could possibly help? I've been bored this morning so done a bit of googling. The American m1910 scabard for the springfield bayonet is canvas covered but has a leather cap. As you think yours may be Vietnam issue, could it indeed be that and just a cheaper more modern version of the 1910? I would expect any official American kit to have US markings though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 22 April , 2010 Share Posted 22 April , 2010 This golok, found on Google Images, looks plausible - and I believe it's a Martindale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2010 Any reissue marks on the other side? Clearance hole in the pommel? Chris Clearance hole has been added as you would imagine, together with a nice clean '27 reissue mark and matching inspection stamp. Some of the original stamps do appear a little "rubbed out" as if to suggest it may have been banging about in that canvas sheath for quite some time. You never seem to see much later reissue stamps than the early 30's even though many of the bayonets saw service well into WW2. At some stage they must have stopped marking them in this fashion. Can anyone verify exactly when the stamping of reissue marks was ordered to be stopped.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2010 Someone may be able to date the webbing belt which could then help with identifying and dating the sheath. The wire loops of the belt hanger on the sheath hook through the holes in the belt and allow it to be kept permanently in position along with the rest of the kit that is to be carried etc. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2010 This golok, found on Google Images, looks plausible - and I believe it's a Martindale. From what I gather that looks very much like the Martindale No.2 golok, which was British army "jungle issue" during the SE Asian conflicts in the 60's. It is a very light and thin style of machete, however I don't believe it would go close to fitting into the canvas sheath unfortunately - the point profile is all wrong. So it would seem we are still stumped.!! Oh well ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2010 Someone may be able to date the webbing belt which could then help with identifying and dating the sheath. The wire loops of the belt hanger on the sheath hook through the holes in the belt and allow it to be kept permanently in position along with the rest of the kit that is to be carried etc. For anyone who is interested, through my own stubborn "research" efforts (ie. much googling) I have now managed to uncover the history of the webbing belt. Apparently it is a US WW2 issue Belt, Pistol, M-1936 which was made by various manufacturers between 1942 and 1945. (like this one below) Checkout THIS LINK So thats one part of the puzzle solved at least - now for the rest ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 April , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2010 For anyone who is interested, through my own stubborn "research" efforts (ie. much googling) I have now managed to uncover the history of the webbing belt. Apparently it is a US WW2 issue Belt, Pistol, M-1936 which was made by various manufacturers between 1942 and 1945. It would appear that these Pistol Belts are exceedingly valuable gauging from the prices being paid at THIS AUCTION .!!! While the bayonet itself is in reasonable condition and quite clean there is no suggestion that the 1918 stamped Remingtons are all that scarce. It could be that people are willing to pay more to own an item that is reported to have been used by a veteran etc - higher history value and all that. But surely that kind of claim must be very hard to substantiate - and still people pay the extra money for their little piece of "authentic" nostalgia.?? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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