Forgotten Heroes

[TWORLEDGE]

Have found parish of St. Barnabas -Wilbury Avenue, Hove is just inside the boundary.

Wandered there late morning and the church was closed! Thought that it would be opon on a Sunday. Have E mailed the minister to see when the church will be open and explained interest in Victor Richardson and local soldiers who fought in the Great War.

Terry will PM message you !

Hi Michael.

managed to get to the Church when it was open today. Very impressive inside. No personal memorial to Victor but a half dozen others to various people. Main plaque for Parish had Victor on it of course. see you later Terry.

[MichaelBully]

Hello Terry, I was looking at this plaque from All Saints Church, I think that this must cover all the men from Hove. All Saints functions as the main church of Hove. It seems a high number of casualties from one parish. What has struck me looking at this again is that the last five men on the plaque are out of alphabetical sequence so perhaps died from wounds incurred after the Armistice?

As well as Victor Richardson being listed on this plaque but also on the memorial at Saint Barnabas, 'J.M. Dickinson' must be Ltn. John Malcolm Dickinson from the Royal Sussex, who has a memorial plaque at St Andrews Church , Waterloo Street in Hove.

With best wishes

Michael

[MichaelBully]

Following previous posts, have gone to Saint Barnabas this morning, and after the service ended, went into the church and wrote down the names on the Great War memorial plaque into my notebook. Going through the names by typing into the Commonwealth War Graves Commission search engine, some men I can trace and they appear to be from Hove. Others I can't find at all, whilst there are men who can find on CWGC but seem to have no connection to Hove or this district, or to the Royal Sussex.

What is strange is that there is an 'E. Brittain' and a 'R.Leighton' mentioned - as well as 'V. Richardson'. The latter seems to be Victor Richardson as discussed as this was his family parish church. If the other two are 'Edward Brittain' and 'Roland Leighton' -it is possible that the Richardson family wanted them remembered as friends of Victor but they wouldn't have any connection to Hove as far as I know.

I am wondering if Saint Barnabas memorial plaque was established for parishioners who wanted to remember those who died but did not necessarily mean that they were local men.

[TWORLEDGE]

Following previous posts, have gone to Saint Barnabas this morning, and after the service ended, went into the church and wrote down the names on the Great War memorial plaque into my notebook. Going through the names by typing into the Commonwealth War Graves Commission search engine, some men I can trace and they appear to be from Hove. Others I can't find at all, whilst there are men who can find on CWGC but seem to have no connection to Hove or this district, or to the Royal Sussex.

What is strange is that there is an 'E. Brittain' and a 'R.Leighton' mentioned - as well as 'V. Richardson'. The latter seems to be Victor Richardson as discussed as this was his family parish church. If the other two are 'Edward Brittain' and 'Roland Leighton' -it is possible that the Richardson family wanted them remembered as friends of Victor but they wouldn't have any connection to Hove as far as I know.

I am wondering if Saint Barnabas memorial plaque was established for parishioners who wanted to remember those who died but did not necessarily mean that they were local men.

Certainly sounds that way Michael. Sound's like the locals just put down friends and aquaintances. I can well imagine Frank Richardson putting down his two friends. I must try to get a look inside St Barnabus sometimes. Sounds very intriguing. I suppose there may be a feeling of bringing the three friends together again when one sees them on a plaque together.

see you later Terry.

[kenf48]

Certainly sounds that way Michael. Sound's like the locals just put down friends and aquaintances. I can well imagine Frank Richardson putting down his two friends. I must try to get a look inside St Barnabus sometimes. Sounds very intriguing. I suppose there may be a feeling of bringing the three friends together again when one sees them on a plaque together.

With respect, there are some huge assumptions being made on minimal research perhaps reflecting 21st Century attitudes to community, worship and religion.

The magnificent memorial plaque pictured would take a massive amount of time to research properly, at least six months. although in reality as many pals have found a never ending obsession and would need to be done to reflect and respect the original pride and honour of those who placed it there.

The fund raising and unveiling would have been a solemn occasion reported in the local press. The Committee (there no doubt was one) would have deliberated long and hard about the names. They would not have 'put down friends and acquaintances', all will have some connection with the Parish. It may be they were baptised there, or went to Sunday School, or their parents worshipped there. Whatever the reason there would be strict criteria. It's not surprising they are not all Royal Sussex, after conscription soldiers went where they were needed and county Regimental association broke down. There will be soldiers who emigrated, moved away and are even recorded on other Church memorials in other Parishes and other denominations, but somewhere in their lives there will be a connection with St Barnabas.

Ken

[MichaelBully]

Hello Ken,

The magnificent memorial pictured further up the thread is from All Saints Church in Hove, not Saint Barnanbas. All Saints functions still as the official Anglican church of Hove whilst Saint Barnabas is more of a local Parish Church. I posted yesterday after visiting Saint Barnabas and listing the names mentioned on their memorial plaque.

As for making assumptions, well yes, the more I research for myself, the more I find that assumptions are challenged. Sometimes preconceptions have to be 'de-learned' and my opinion does change the more I study about the Great War and presumably will change again.

This week I want to carry on trying to trace men listed at Saint Barnabas with Commonwealth War Graves Commission search engine and also the Sussex Roll of Honour, though that draws heavily on CWGC. Also I will try and ring the Minister at Saint Barnabas and see if he has any information on how the plaque was established and how the names were selected.

Will report back .

Michael

With respect, there are some huge assumptions being made on minimal research perhaps reflecting 21st Century attitudes to community, worship and religion.

The magnificent memorial plaque pictured would take a massive amount of time to research properly, at least six months. although in reality as many pals have found a never ending obsession and would need to be done to reflect and respect the original pride and honour of those who placed it there.

The fund raising and unveiling would have been a solemn occasion reported in the local press. The Committee (there no doubt was one) would have deliberated long and hard about the names. They would not have 'put down friends and acquaintances', all will have some connection with the Parish. It may be they were baptised there, or went to Sunday School, or their parents worshipped there. Whatever the reason there would be strict criteria. It's not surprising they are not all Royal Sussex, after conscription soldiers went where they were needed and county Regimental association broke down. There will be soldiers who emigrated, moved away and are even recorded on other Church memorials in other Parishes and other denominations, but somewhere in their lives there will be a connection with St Barnabas.

Ken

[TWORLEDGE]

With respect, there are some huge assumptions being made on minimal research perhaps reflecting 21st Century attitudes to community, worship and religion.

The magnificent memorial plaque pictured would take a massive amount of time to research properly, at least six months. although in reality as many pals have found a never ending obsession and would need to be done to reflect and respect the original pride and honour of those who placed it there.

The fund raising and unveiling would have been a solemn occasion reported in the local press. The Committee (there no doubt was one) would have deliberated long and hard about the names. They would not have 'put down friends and acquaintances', all will have some connection with the Parish. It may be they were baptised there, or went to Sunday School, or their parents worshipped there. Whatever the reason there would be strict criteria. It's not surprising they are not all Royal Sussex, after conscription soldiers went where they were needed and county Regimental association broke down. There will be soldiers who emigrated, moved away and are even recorded on other Church memorials in other Parishes and other denominations, but somewhere in their lives there will be a connection with St Barnabas.

Ken

Hi Ken.

I'm fairly convinced that the names of E. Brittain and R. Leighton on the St Barnabus Plaque are Edward Brittain and Roland Leighton. Any other interpretation defies belief. The main memorial in St B's is a Stained Glass window. I'm told the plaque is written by hand in chalk. I haven't seen it yet but hope to wednesday. I'll try and get some Photos of it. This is Victor's Parish. The two names are his great friends as set out in several books by Edward's sister Vera Brittain. Assumption sucks of course but reasoned interpretation can work wonders. Of course the fun is in the hunt even if it's only for facts.

See you later Terry.

[Andy Wade]

Hi Ken.

I'm fairly convinced that the names of E. Brittain and R. Leighton on the St Barnabus Plaque are Edward Brittain and Roland Leighton. Any other interpretation defies belief. The main memorial in St B's is a Stained Glass window. I'm told the plaque is written by hand in chalk. I haven't seen it yet but hope to wednesday. I'll try and get some Photos of it. This is Victor's Parish. The two names are his great friends as set out in several books by Edward's sister Vera Brittain. Assumption sucks of course but reasoned interpretation can work wonders. Of course the fun is in the hunt even if it's only for facts.

See you later Terry.

Hi Terry,

Is it this memorial?

I was looking at the UKNIWM records for it and they say that in 2002 it was in a poor state and not fully restored having been found by the vicar, dumped in the church hall. I was wondering if you could let us know on here what it looks like now. The UKNIWM people would probably appreciate an update on its current condition for their records too.

According to their records it's a wood board with gold lettering and is 100mm High and 580mm width. Seems a little bit small for 111 names. I'm wondering if the 100mm should read 1000mm...

Apart from the main window, there are also apparently two other stained glass windows dedicated to three individuals from WW1, and another for a Boer War individual.

I have a personal interest as my mother's Dad was in the R. Sussex Regt in 1915/17 and later the Labour Corps until the end of the war.

[kenf48]

Hi Ken.

I'm fairly convinced that the names of E. Brittain and R. Leighton on the St Barnabus Plaque are Edward Brittain and Roland Leighton. Any other interpretation defies belief. The main memorial in St B's is a Stained Glass window. I'm told the plaque is written by hand in chalk. I haven't seen it yet but hope to wednesday. I'll try and get some Photos of it. This is Victor's Parish. The two names are his great friends as set out in several books by Edward's sister Vera Brittain. Assumption sucks of course but reasoned interpretation can work wonders. Of course the fun is in the hunt even if it's only for facts.

See you later Terry.

Terry,

Apologies for the confusion but this has become a very tangled thread!

It will be interesting to see a picture and you are probably right, it may well be a personal memorial. T.he Leighton family home was in Hassocks and SDGW has only one E Brittain. I assume you've seen the entry for Victor Richardson on the Hove Library Memorial part of the Sussex Roll of Honour site which includes his Du Ruvigny entry http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Sussex/Hove-R-T.html

Ken

[TWORLEDGE]

Hi Terry,

Is it this memorial?

I was looking at the UKNIWM records for it and they say that in 2002 it was in a poor state and not fully restored having been found by the vicar, dumped in the church hall. I was wondering if you could let us know on here what it looks like now. The UKNIWM people would probably appreciate an update on its current condition for their records too.

According to their records it's a wood board with gold lettering and is 100mm High and 580mm width. Seems a little bit small for 111 names. I'm wondering if the 100mm should read 1000mm...

Apart from the main window, there are also apparently two other stained glass windows dedicated to three individuals from WW1, and another for a Boer War individual.

I have a personal interest as my mother's Dad was in the R. Sussex Regt in 1915/17 and later the Labour Corps until the end of the war.

Hi Andy.

I guess Michael could tell you better than I. I'll certainly know what to look for though when I get down to the church. Thanks for all the info. See you later Terry.

[MichaelBully]

Hello Andy, yes this is the memorial . When I first saw it, I thought it was chalked the same way a restaurant might put 'chef's special of the day' up

but yes it some gold lettering on black-I looked again this Sunday. Cross referencing with my notebook , there are 110 names but 111 entries as one names is entered twice. The spelling doesn't always seem quite right.

As mentioned earlier, I have typed the names out and have been cross-referencing with the Sussex Roll of Honour Hove Library memorial plaque, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the National Archives. Some I have identified and are local to the Parish but others still seem a mystery, I just can't find their names listed anywhere.

I have to admit that I didn't even notice the stained glass windows, but did go looking out for memorial plaques to individuals which might been honouring Great war dead but haven't found any. Will check out the windows soon.

Hi Terry,

Is it this memorial?

I was looking at the UKNIWM records for it and they say that in 2002 it was in a poor state and not fully restored having been found by the vicar, dumped in the church hall. I was wondering if you could let us know on here what it looks like now. The UKNIWM people would probably appreciate an update on its current condition for their records too.

According to their records it's a wood board with gold lettering and is 100mm High and 580mm width. Seems a little bit small for 111 names. I'm wondering if the 100mm should read 1000mm...

Apart from the main window, there are also apparently two other stained glass windows dedicated to three individuals from WW1, and another for a Boer War individual.

I have a personal interest as my mother's Dad was in the R. Sussex Regt in 1915/17 and later the Labour Corps until the end of the war.

[MichaelBully]

Hello Ken

It was due to Terry's enthusiasm and persistence that the Sussex Roll of Honour Hove Library plaque entry ( as linked below) was corrected in respect of Victor Richardson. Originally this Roll had Victor dying in Mesopotamia !

The Leighton family lived near Great Yarmouth and moved near to Hassocks in 1915. I am not sure if Roland Leighton visited the Richardson family home at Wilbury Avenue, Hove but The Richardsons would have known about him and may have met him elsewhere. I can think of at least one visit Edward Brittain made to the Richardson family home in January 1916 that Vera recorded in 'Chronicle of Youth' ,whilst Vera became a long standing friend of the Richardson family and also visited.

With best wishes

Terry,

Apologies for the confusion but this has become a very tangled thread!

It will be interesting to see a picture and you are probably right, it may well be a personal memorial. T.he Leighton family home was in Hassocks and SDGW has only one E Brittain. I assume you've seen the entry for Victor Richardson on the Hove Library Memorial part of the Sussex Roll of Honour site which includes his Du Ruvigny entry http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Sussex/Hove-R-T.html

Ken

[TWORLEDGE]

Terry,

Apologies for the confusion but this has become a very tangled thread!

It will be interesting to see a picture and you are probably right, it may well be a personal memorial. T.he Leighton family home was in Hassocks and SDGW has only one E Brittain. I assume you've seen the entry for Victor Richardson on the Hove Library Memorial part of the Sussex Roll of Honour site which includes his Du Ruvigny entry http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Sussex/Hove-R-T.html

Ken

It is rather tangled. At my age most things are confusing anyway. The Hove Library stuff is quite something. Boxes of stuff mainly press cuttings for each person. Also there are Photographs of some 400 Hove subjects who died. Not one of Victor I'm sad to say. Most of his cuttings were mostly what Du Ruvigny entry. Hope to get some pix of the board this week.

See you later Terry.

[TWORLEDGE]

[attachm

ent=120368:BOTHPLAQUES1.jpg]

Hi Terry,

Is it this memorial?

I was looking at the UKNIWM records for it and they say that in 2002 it was in a poor state and not fully restored having been found by the vicar, dumped in the church hall. I was wondering if you could let us know on here what it looks like now. The UKNIWM people would probably appreciate an update on its current condition for their records too.

According to their records it's a wood board with gold lettering and is 100mm High and 580mm width. Seems a little bit small for 111 names. I'm wondering if the 100mm should read 1000mm...

Apart from the main window, there are also apparently two other stained glass windows dedicated to three individuals from WW1, and another for a Boer War individual.

I have a personal interest as my mother's Dad was in the R. Sussex Regt in 1915/17 and later the Labour Corps until the end of the war.

Hi Andy.

here are the panels with the names from st barnabus. They do look rather old as suggested. Nice display though. Yours Terry.

[TWORLEDGE]

Hi Terry,

Is it this memorial?

I was looking at the UKNIWM records for it and they say that in 2002 it was in a poor state and not fully restored having been found by the vicar, dumped in the church hall. I was wondering if you could let us know on here what it looks like now. The UKNIWM people would probably appreciate an update on its current condition for their records too.

According to their records it's a wood board with gold lettering and is 100mm High and 580mm width. Seems a little bit small for 111 names. I'm wondering if the 100mm should read 1000mm...

Apart from the main window, there are also apparently two other stained glass windows dedicated to three individuals from WW1, and another for a Boer War individual.

I have a personal interest as my mother's Dad was in the R. Sussex Regt in 1915/17 and later the Labour Corps until the end of the war.

Hi Andy.

I forgot to take shot of the display but here is a rather off centre idea of how it looks. I got rather distracted by the windows. Terry.

[TWORLEDGE]

Hi Ken.

thought you might like to see the Memorial Window in St Barnabus. This seems to be the real monument here. Very large at the western end of the church. Dedicated to the Soldiers of the Allies that Gave their lives in the Great War 1914 18. Also to the people of the parish who aided the war effort. Must have been quite a project this window.

Yours Terry.

[mandy hall]

Beautiful window Terry. Is the church always open or did you have to contact the vicar for access? Next time I am over your way I will try to have a look.

Mandy

[TWORLEDGE]

Beautiful window Terry. Is the church always open or did you have to contact the vicar for access? Next time I am over your way I will try to have a look.

Mandy

Hi Mandy.

Michael managed to find out from someone that it was open Saturday till around noon. It's on the web under a church near you. Basically open for services and sometimes coffee after that. Underneath the window there is a large painting of The Last Supper. I find the window makes a nice desktop with a black background.

See you later Terry.

[mandy hall]

Thanks for info Terry

Mandy

[TWORLEDGE]

Beautiful window Terry. Is the church always open or did you have to contact the vicar for access? Next time I am over your way I will try to have a look.

Mandy

Hi Mandy.

I've put a larger version of the picture at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/terence.worledge/MANDY so you can see the detail. The view is tweaked with Paint Shop Pro's "perspective" feature of course. You'll be looking up at it at the church. Yours Terry.

[mandy hall]

Thank you Terry for the above link, nice to be able to look at the window in closer detail, it is a very beautiful window.

Mandy

[MichaelBully]

Hello Mandy

I found out that the church was open on Saturday- and notified Terry- by phoning the vicarage. The Saturday just gone they were getting the church ready for the series of service leading up to Easter so were open. I am not sure if the church is open every Saturday morning.

Otherwise try the website

http://www.achurchnearyou.com/hove-st-barnabas/ for contact details.

Another time the church is open for visitors is after the Sunday morning mass which starts at 10.30 and lasts between a hour and a hour and a quarter.

There is a book on sale about the history of the church 'The First Century of Saint Barnabas' for a £1.00 . During the Great War there were prayers for serving forces men at the church after the Tuesday and Thursday Eucharists and an Intercession Service for them every Thursday evening which was attended by some 100 people, according to this book. The parish magazine tried to get parishoners to attend at least once a week at one of the services to pray for 'our boys'.

Hi Mandy.

Michael managed to find out from someone that it was open Saturday till around noon. It's on the web under a church near you. Basically open for services and sometimes coffee after that. Underneath the window there is a large painting of The Last Supper. I find the window makes a nice desktop with a black background.

See you later Terry.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks for placing the picture of the war memorial from Saint Barnabas Terry. Will carry on trying to trace the men who are mentioned on it. One thing I haven't done yet is to speak to the Minister directly, might try to contact him after Easter and see what he knows about memorial.

From reading the aforementioned 'The First Century of Saint Barnabas' , there was another church on the other side of the railway line called Saint Agnes built to serve that section of the parish, opened in 1913,but closed in 1977. Where the Richardson family lived was on the 'Saint Agnes' side of the parish as it were.

By Saint Barnabas there was a war memorial hall on the other side of Sackville Road, from 1921 - 1965. Would be keen to find out what Great War commemoration there was in this building.

[MichaelBully]

I have been in contact with the Friends of Saint Andrews Church, Waterloo Street, Hove, about researching men from the parish who died during the Great War. They seem interested .

Saint Andrews was one of the most prestigious churches in the Brunswick part of Hove. Only about two services a year are held there now and the church is used as a community venue whilst volunteers keep the building open every Sunday afternoon for visitors.

http://www.visitstandrews.org/

[TWORLEDGE]

I have been in contact with the Friends of Saint Andrews Church, Waterloo Street, Hove, about researching men from the parish who died during the Great War. They seem interested .

Saint Andrews was one of the most prestigious churches in the Brunswick part of Hove. Only about two services a year are held there now and the church is used as a community venue whilst volunteers keep the building open every Sunday afternoon for visitors.

http://www.visitstandrews.org/

Hi Michael.

sounds interesting I must take a look sometime. We must try and get a look in the one near George Street sometime. Yours Terry.