Forgotten Heroes

[Andy Wade]

I've seen a stone with a bronze inlay very like the Plaques that were issued with the scrolls. Could you order extra ones for this purpose or would it be original. Yours Terry.

That must have been in a cemetery back here then, rather than an offical CWGC cemetery? I'm wondering if it's an original plaque? You can certainly get reproduction plaques today. If I had a real one, I'd be very wary about fixing it on a grave because of vandals, mind you, we live in different times nowadays...

Got a picture of it?

[Tom Morgan]

Andy, Alan, there was indeed a charge. It was 3½ old pence per letter and there was a limit of 66 letters. Spaces between words didn't count as far as payment was concerned, but they did count towards the total of 66. (We have seen how some relatives were able to circumvent the 66 letter rule). People who had not paid up were not chased for the debt. In time, the payment became voluntary, and in time everyone got to know this. But at the very beginning, this was not the case and some relatives chose not to have a personal inscription because they couldn't afford to pay for it.

A couple of years ago, Pal Terry Denham posted the figures from the CWGC annual reports giving the income from personal inscriptions (in pounds, shillings and pence):

1919/20 £41/5/6

1920/21 £5578/2/4

1921/22 £6458/11/7

1922/23 £14345/11/1

1923/24 £13332/7/10

1924/25 £11468/3/9

Terry said that after this last date the item disappears from the annual accounts - possibly after the charge was made voluntary. Subsequent accounts have an item for sums received from the general public (donations) and the amounts are insignificant.

The CWGC can't look after a private grave because they aren't the owners. A private grave is still a war grave, though, and the important thing is whether or not there is an inscription so that the grave can be identified. If a grave becomes so decayed that there's no legible inscription, the CWGC will make efforts to locate the owner to get permission to erect a CWGC stone instead. Where no owner can be traced, there are alternative regulations which allow the CWGC to place a new stone so that the grave can be identified.

Tom

[Andy Wade]

That's a fantastic bit of information, thanks very much for posting it, it's much appreciated.

On another thread on here, I've just been reading about the poor state of some of the cemeteries 'doon south' and am now thankful for the efforts of Bradford Council here, who do an absolutely sterling job looking after all of ours. I'll stop whinging about the odd stone that is a little overgrown and be thankful that they are there at all and not in the hands of a private company that cares very little about the state of it and eventually clears the stones away to leave it looking like a ploughed field.

I found it ironic that one company says that people don't visit so we don't maintain the cemetery, when that's probably why people don't visit it in the frst place.

[Tom Morgan]

For completeness, here is the text of the Final Verification Form sent to relatives. It invites relatives to check the details about to be engraved on the gravestone, and it also invites the relatives to state the age of the soldier if they wish - explaining why we see some graves with the casualty's age and some without. It also gives relatives the opportunity to choose not to have a cross on the grave.

Most important for our present discussion, it gives the rules about personal inscriptions, with details of charges.

Dear Sir or Madam,

The Imperial War Graves Commission desire to make preparation for the

erection of a headstone in ............................... CEMETERY over the grave of:-

(details of deceased, regiment, date of death)

Grave Location (e.g. Plot II Row 3 Grave 8)

The headstone will have engraved on it the naval or military inscription,

the badge of the deceased's naval or military unit, and an emblem of his

religious faith.

The Commission would be obliged if you would kindly assist them by saying

whether the above particulars, name, initials, honours, etc., are correct,

in order that the naval or military inscription may be absolutely accurate.

A space " a " is provided on the opposite page for any corrections you may

desire to make.

If you wish the age to be engraved will you give particulars in the space on

the opposite page after the word AGE.

In addition. a space has been reserved at the foot of the headstone, below

the emblem of religious faith for the engraving, at your own expense, of a

short personal inscription or text of your own choice.

It is regretted that special alphabets, such as Greek, cannot be accepted.

The length of the inscription is limited by the space available on the

headstone, and should in consequence not exceed 66 letters, the space

between two words counting as one letter.

For instance if you choose 12 words, the total number of actual letters

should not exceed 55, there being 11 spaces between the words.

If you desire to use this space will you kindly write (clearly) the

inscription or text you select in the space " b' opposite.

A claim for the amount due from you in respect of the engraving of the

selected inscription, will be sent to you in due course. The present price

is 3 1/2d. per letter, but this may be subject to future fluctuations of

cost.

Unless you express a wish to the contrary in the space " c " opposite, a

cross will be engraved in the centre of the stone,

Yours faithfully,

FABIAN WARE,

Major General,

Vice-Chairman.

IMPERIAL WAR GRAVES COMMISSION

Tom

[Andy Wade]

For completeness, here is the text of the Final Verification Form sent to relatives.

Many thanks Tom.

That's very informative and far more than I could have hoped to learn.

[Andy Wade]

Well that certainly looks like the genuine article doesn't it?

Verdigris and all. Looks like it's been there a long time too, which gives it a little bit of extra provenance.

The first one I've ever seen fixed into a gravestone.

Many thanks for posting it Terry.

[TWORLEDGE]

Well that certainly looks like the genuine article doesn't it?

Verdigris and all. Looks like it's been there a long time too, which gives it a little bit of extra provenance.

The first one I've ever seen fixed into a gravestone.

Many thanks for posting it Terry.

Yes it looks genuine. Doesn't seem a good idea to leave a signpost to it so I've taken it off now. Terry.

[Andy Wade]

Yes it looks genuine. Doesn't seem a good idea to leave a signpost to it so I've taken it off now. Terry.

I agree.

Sign of the times mate...

[Ghost]

Tom, thanks for the refresh.

The final verification letter poses more questions for me, but I will start another thread with them,

Alan

[TWORLEDGE]

I agree.

Sign of the times mate...

Yes it is. I was amazed to see that bronze plaques from war memorials had been stolen. Replaced now by the CWGC. How low can some people stoop. I haven'nt measured the plaque in question to see if it is the right diameter. It's close enough to assume it is though. I must try and take more details of the guy and see what I can find out about him. I remember in the sixties seeing loads of these things at a street market where I lived. I used to go there every week. I wonder if they are all still in existence.

There was an interesting thread concerning the maker of these plaques once on here. Someone wanting to know when he died. So all the genealogists tried to find him. Turned out the guy had stopped looking through the BMD at about a year from his death. Oddly that was good because they found out a lot of stuff about him during the search. After the plaques he invented a new sort of army boot with soles and heels that peeled off when worn out. Good idea but they started off about 1 1/2 inches thick. He was still trying to sell the idea decades later; wearing them around Chelsea in the Sixties and I'm convinced that Mary Quant got the idea for her ground breaking shoe designs from this guy.

Sorry for the ramble. Terry.

[MichaelBully]

Hello Terry, I have been wondering if the Great War dead at Hove Old Cemmetry would also memorial plaques in their parish churches or if relatives preferred to have such plaques in churches for those who died overseas?

In respect of Victor Richardson, I had been wondering about getting a map of the parishes of Hove and seeing what church would be nearest to Wilbury Avenue, and seeing if there is a war memorial or plaque which mentions him.

Regards

Michael

[kenf48]

The UKNIWM has four pages for Hove http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.002

St Barnabas appears to be the closest C of E Church to Wilbury Avenue, as an officer more likely to be Church than Chapel

Assume you've seen this site http://www.buildingopinions.com/Archive/H/...armemorial.html As in Eastbourne, and many other places, where the Memorial design and location not allow for the names of the town's Fallen to be listed they were invariably recorded elsewhere (e.g.in Eastbourne on oak plaques in the Town Hall).

As with all databases UKNIWM is as accurate as the information that has been supplied, and I have experience of 'stored' Memorials not being where there supposed to be. The staff, hwever, are unfailingly knowledgeable and helpful. The entry for St Barnabas suggests the Vicar at the time the information was recorded is quite keen.

Ken

[Susan_F]

The UKNIWM has four pages for Hove http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.002

St Barnabas appears to be the closest C of E Church to Wilbury Avenue, as an officer more likely to be Church than Chapel

Assume you've seen this site http://www.buildingopinions.com/Archive/H/...armemorial.html As in Eastbourne, and many other places, where the Memorial design and location not allow for the names of the town's Fallen to be listed they were invariably recorded elsewhere (e.g.in Eastbourne on oak plaques in the Town Hall).

As with all databases UKNIWM is as accurate as the information that has been supplied, and I have experience of 'stored' Memorials not being where there supposed to be. The staff, hwever, are unfailingly knowledgeable and helpful. The entry for St Barnabas suggests the Vicar at the time the information was recorded is quite keen.

Ken

If the people mentioned on the tombstone are buried elsewhere then this is a memorial. The National Inventory of War Memorials records them as 'additions to gravestones'. There is one recorded in Hove. www.UKNIWM,org.uk - use the advanced search.

Susan

Kent Volunteer Fieldworker UKNIWM

[Susan_F]

Oops sorry - I tapped the wrong button.

Susan

[TWORLEDGE]

Hello Terry, I have been wondering if the Great War dead at Hove Old Cemmetry would also memorial plaques in their parish churches or if relatives preferred to have such plaques in churches for those who died overseas?

In respect of Victor Richardson, I had been wondering about getting a map of the parishes of Hove and seeing what church would be nearest to Wilbury Avenue, and seeing if there is a war memorial or plaque which mentions him.

Regards

Michael

That's an idea Michael. I'll see what I can see. I must admit that from what I've read I'd be disinclined to expect it. You never know though. No idea whether they are Catholic or Protestant. The local church should be evident on bing maps. Very good birdseye coverage of Hove. Sort of thing his mother might have suggested but she was dead by then. Be nice to find if it does exist. Might be an addition to one for Carrie. Yours Terry.

[mandy hall]

From your post then Susan I take it that the UKNIWM are interested in recording these graves and that if I sent details of my great uncles's remembrance on his grandmothers grave (see post 3) they would record it.

Mandy

[mandy hall]

This is another grave in Portfield Cemetery Chichester it records

Algernon Martin 2nd Lieut R F A

Eldest son killed in action in France

31st July 1918 age 32 years

He is recorded on his parents grave Edwin Henry Martin and Laura

He has a war grave in Buzancy Military Cemetery France

One other that caught my eye is to Dr Harold Andrew Kidd C B E recorded on his grave Superintendent of Graylingwell 1897-1926 and O/C of Graylingwell War Hospital 1915-1918

[CROONAERT]

From your post then Susan I take it that the UKNIWM are interested in recording these graves and that if I sent details of my great uncles's remembrance on his grandmothers grave (see post 3) they would record it.

If you get a reply from them, that is. (I offered them images of over 600 military/war related headstones in Burnley cemetery (half of which are such 'memorial' inscriptions) last year...didn't get a reply, so I didn't bother offering again!)

Dave

[Andy Wade]

Yes, I'd say that about one third to one half of the 'war grave' pictures I've recorded in local cemeteries and graveyards are family memorials, so it seems to have been a popular thing at the time. I would never have thought to send the memorial ones to the UKNIWM though because I didn't know they would have been interested in them. Is this the case now?

Mine have all gone to the British War Memorial Project and The War Graves Photographic Project.

[MichaelBully]

That's an idea Michael. I'll see what I can see. I must admit that from what I've read I'd be disinclined to expect it. You never know though. No idea whether they are Catholic or Protestant. The local church should be evident on bing maps. Very good birdseye coverage of Hove. Sort of thing his mother might have suggested but she was dead by then. Be nice to find if it does exist. Might be an addition to one for Carrie. Yours Terry.

And thanks also to Ken and Susan F and everyone else whose posting on this thread.

Terry, might check out St. Barnabas, I know it functions quite prominently in Rememberance Day commemorations, it is quite high Anglican. I have had a look again at Victor's War Service records, no mention of religion at all. I think that Victor went to Uppingham School suggests that he wasn't Roman Catholic or Unitarian, more likely to be 'Church' more than 'Chapel' but again when relatives get in contact again, something I might put to them.

With best wishes

Michael

[TWORLEDGE]

And thanks also to Ken and Susan F and everyone else whose posting on this thread.

Terry, might check out St. Barnabas, I know it functions quite prominently in Rememberance Day commemorations, it is quite high Anglican. I have had a look again at Victor's War Service records, no mention of religion at all. I think that Victor went to Uppingham School suggests that he wasn't Roman Catholic or Unitarian, more likely to be 'Church' more than 'Chapel' but again when relatives get in contact again, something I might put to them.

With best wishes

Michael

Michael there is one in Eaton Road. Big church called All Saints. I emailed them but have had no answer yet. There is another in that road but it's redundant. Not sure whether it's possible to gain access. There is an argument as to it's future. Listed building and all. Apparently All Saints is open to casual visitors quite a lot so I might take a look this week. It would be quite a pleasant stroll from Wilbury Avenue to All Saints I would imagine. I wonder if there is a record of the burial and who took it. Maybe they mention the name and church of clergyman. The evening Argus might have an archive that long. I have a newspaper cutting from a great uncles funeral that really goes into detail.

Terry.

[Susan_F]

Sorry about the delay, I lost the Internet connection completely for several days.

The NIWM records all UK memorials of those who die as a result of war. Those found on graves are classified as 'addition to gravestone'.

The NIWM is chronically under funded. Please read http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;#entry1315249 I wish I knew an answer, as a fieldworker I just do the best I can.

Susan

Kent Volunteer Fieldworker

UKNIWM

[MichaelBully]

<<<<Terry, might check out St. Barnabas, I know it functions quite prominently in Rememberance Day commemorations, it is quite high Anglican.>>>>

Oops ! Error in my post of a few days ago. I was getting St. Barnabas mixed up with All Saints, which serves as the main Anglican church for civic ceremonies such as Rememberance Day.

Went for a walk this afternoon to try to find Victor Richardson's family home at 65 Wilbury Avenue; this now seems to have been demolished and a small block of flats is in its place.

It is not far from All Saints church but the church was closed when I walked by this afternoon. Will try again another day and report back.

[TWORLEDGE]

<<<<Terry, might check out St. Barnabas, I know it functions quite prominently in Rememberance Day commemorations, it is quite high Anglican.>>>>

Oops ! Error in my post of a few days ago. I was getting St. Barnabas mixed up with All Saints, which serves as the main Anglican church for civic ceremonies such as Rememberance Day.

Went for a walk this afternoon to try to find Victor Richardson's family home at 65 Wilbury Avenue; this now seems to have been demolished and a small block of flats is in its place.

It is not far from All Saints church but the church was closed when I walked by this afternoon. Will try again another day and report back.

Hi Michael.

I had no reply from All Saints but never really thought I would. There are probably a lot of plaques in there. I mean to check it out myself sometime. No idea when it's open though. Shame about 65 being gone. I would have like to have seen it. Keep up the good work. Terry.

[MichaelBully]

Have found parish of St. Barnabas -Wilbury Avenue, Hove is just inside the boundary.

Wandered there late morning and the church was closed! Thought that it would be opon on a Sunday. Have E mailed the minister to see when the church will be open and explained interest in Victor Richardson and local soldiers who fought in the Great War.

Terry will PM message you !