51st Highland Division insignia

[4thGordons]

Thanks Chris I had not seen that particular information from 1916 before!

 

Here is one more famous image of the 1/4th showing the brigade insignia painted on Brodies and as shoulder patches (1917)

Chris

[Steven Broomfield]

Completely nothing to do with the topic, but that picture always fascinates me - the blokes on the left don't look at all chuffed at the thought of jumping across the trench.

[4thGordons]

5 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Completely nothing to do with the topic, but that picture always fascinates me - the blokes on the left don't look at all chuffed at the thought of jumping across the trench.

I agree -- but its muddy and they have a lot of kit on and with rifles...and it's what...a 5-6ft jump?

reminds me of the scene from Apocalypse Now "...go by like you're fighting...like you're fighting...don't look at the camera...."

 

Here is the pic showing what I believe to be individual strips -- no backing

 

 

[gordon92]

Here is a link to a page from a well known vendor that has a Gordon Jacket & Tam presently on sale (at an excessive price IMO).  The number of the soldier would indicate that he is 4th Gordons.   In that listing a photo of the jacket sleeve appears to show just two stripes.  Any ideas on this, Chris?  Of course, it is possible that the other two stripes have been removed, but both sleeves show only the two stripes making this unlikely.

 

Mike

 

[4thGordons]

Hmmm My understanding was the 51 HD markings were as follows"

 

52 Bde, Red Horizontal Bar

1 = 5th Seaforth Highlanders

2 = 6th Seaforth Highlanders

3 = 6th Gordon Highlanders

4 = 8th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

 

153 Bde, Dark-Blue Horizontal Bars

1 = 6th Black Watch

2 = 7th Black Watch

3 = 5th Gordon Highlanders

4 = 7th Gordon Highlanders

 

154 Bde, Light-Blue Vertical Bars

1 = 9th Royal Scots

2 = 4th Seaforth Highlanders

3 = 4th Gordon Highlanders

4 = 7th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

 

So I have always assumed my last image shows a 7th Gordon.

2 horizontal bars would not obviously fit with this scheme for a Gordon.

Chris

 

[gordon92]

8 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

Not sure that it is of great use to anyone, but you might find the chart on my page here to be of interest: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/51st-highland-division/

 

56 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Hmmm My understanding was the 51 HD markings were as follows"

 

52 Bde, Red Horizontal Bar

1 = 5th Seaforth Highlanders

2 = 6th Seaforth Highlanders

3 = 6th Gordon Highlanders

4 = 8th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

 

153 Bde, Dark-Blue Horizontal Bars

1 = 6th Black Watch

2 = 7th Black Watch

3 = 5th Gordon Highlanders

4 = 7th Gordon Highlanders

 

154 Bde, Light-Blue Vertical Bars

1 = 9th Royal Scots

2 = 4th Seaforth Highlanders

3 = 4th Gordon Highlanders

4 = 7th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

 

So I have always assumed my last image shows a 7th Gordon.

2 horizontal bars would not obviously fit with this scheme for a Gordon.

Chris

 

 

The chart referenced in Chris Baker's post seems to show horizontal bars for 154 Brigade battalions with one exception.  Am I reading this wrong?

[4thGordons]

Presumably different dates = Different scheme?

 

The 5th Gordons sheet shows 1916 (High-wood), the photos and my sheet date from 1917.

Chris

 

 

[4thVBGH]

Thankyou for the links both Chris and Chris Baker......chap in the foreground Chris has the three bars painted on his Brodie.....Does it follow the three bars would be both sides of the helmet?

 

...........Just looked further through the series and found a images taken from both sides and answered my own question....thankyou again...

 

Robert

Edited 17 September , 2016 by 4thVBGH

[Mike_H]

That 51st Div seems to cause problems with its changes!. As far as I have been able to ascertain the original convention was for Officers to wear the bars horizontally and O/r's vertically. That was until late 1917 or early 1918 when all ranks wore them horizontally. There was at least one exception as I have seen a photo of 1/7th Black Watch wearing bars horizontally in May 1917 and I won't argue that there couldn't have been other deviations. Helmets were marked on both sides.

 

Mike

[4thGordons]

3 hours ago, Mike_H said:

 There was at least one exception as I have seen a photo of 1/7th Black Watch wearing bars horizontally in May 1917 and I won't argue that there couldn't have been other deviations. Helmets were marked on both sides.

 

Mike

 

Well there are three more clearly documented exceptions in the official and dated  IWM  pics I linked to from 1917 (Cambrai) and 1918 (100 days) with 4th Gordons men (NCOs and O/Rs) all wearing vertical bars

I have yet to see a pic of the 4th Gordons with horizontal bars but as you say......never say never.

Chris

 

[Neill Gilhooley]

Just to add to the picture store, here is the famous Bill Hay, 9th Royal Scots, with a single vertical bar, from Jon Nicholl's 'Cheerful Sacrifice'

Edited 19 September , 2016 by Neill Gilhooley