Royal Naval Reserve, Belgian Fishers, DSC medal for Richard Brouckxon

[ARABIS]

Hello Gregory,

Fully recovered now, thanks

Here is a list of the vessels used as the nominal depot ships [with their dates as depot ships] at Swansea for the Great War period.

Mostly taken from,

SHORE ESTABLISHMENTS OF THE ROYAL NAVY, Being a list of the Static Ships and Establishments of the Royal Navy, Compiled by Lt. Cdr. B. Warlow, R.N. [iSBN 0 907771 73 4]

OMBRA, yacht, Auxiliary Patrol depot ship, Bristol Channel [at Swansea] from 12.9.1915 to November 1915, replaced by LONGSET in January 1916. As you will notice, there is a gap of a month or so between these vessels.

LONGSET, trawler, Auxiliary Patrol Parent for Bristol Channel [at Swansea] from January 1916 to 6.02.1917 when the trawler was lost. Formally paid off 16.2.1917 when replaced by SHIKARI.

SHIKARI, trawler, Auxiliary Patrol Base, Bristol Channel [at Swansea] from 16.2.1917 to 11.2.1918 when the trawler & A/P base was renamed SHIKARI II [a destroyer named SHIKARI was commissioned in 1918 & being a warship had preference over the trawler for the name, so the trawler & A/P base became SHIKARI II]. SHIKARI II was paid off on 1.2.1919.

You will notice that in my post of Feb. 8th 2010 I said that SHIKARI was an old cruiser. This is a mistake as I mis-read the abbreviation Cd [Commissioned] for Cr [Cruiser] in the book. Time for new reading glasses I think

There is no mention of any other ships/bases for Swansea, so it looks like it was an Auxiliary Patrol/Fishery Reserve port. However, in Swept Channels by Taffrail there is mention of the Swansea Paddlers [mine sweeping paddle steamers] for 1917 & 1918. Whether they were part of the Auxiliary Patrol I don't know.

The reference books I have been mostly using are Shore Establishments by B. Warlow [see beginning of post for full details] which I think is still in print, and British Warships 1914-1919 by Dittmar & Colledge which is now out of print. Both titles are probably available secondhand on the internet, but I am happy to look up things for you. I'm sure others can suggest better books for trawlers details & histories.

Regards,

David.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

I don't know of any Navy Lists from WW1 available on-line & originals would be quite expensive. I use DVDs which are available from the attached link, .

LINK

Regards,

David.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

There is no mention of any other ships/bases for Swansea, so it looks like it was an Auxiliary Patrol/Fishery Reserve port. However, in Swept Channels by Taffrail there is mention of the Swansea Paddlers [mine sweeping paddle steamers] for 1917 & 1918. Whether they were part of the Auxiliary Patrol I don't know.

I think mine sweeping paddle steamers were part of the Auxilliary Patrol until the Mine Clearence Section was set up.

SHIKARI II would have been the nominal depot ship handling the administration. There are several threads about depot ships on the forum.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

PS: where would one find such things as an October 1917 or December 1918 Navy List?

(is the answer perhaps Kew?

Kew; The British Library; The National Maritime Museum, Greenwich; some occasionally appear on secondhand booklists; there have been book reprints as well as CDROMS.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

A depot ship is a vessel [sea going or a hulk] which supports sea going vessels & their personnel.

As you say, even shore bases had to be treated as ships for the purposes of naval discipline [e.g., when you walk out of the main gate you are still "going ashore"], so they had a vessel attached which gave its name to the base & this is the nominal depot ship. In post #39 you will see that the nominal depot ships for Swansea were a yacht [OMBRA] & two trawlers [LONGSET & SHIKARI II].

Your G-G-grandfather would have needed a depot ship/base for pay, rations, coal, clothing, general supplies, medical support, & ammunition if a gun was carried. All this had to be organised & run efficiently by the Accountant Branch [Paymasters etc.]. Most of the smaller vessels including destroyers, sloops, submarines, gunboats, trawlers, drifters, motor launches etc., were supplied by the Accountant Branch based in depot ships/bases.

"Swansea apparently being of minor importance". Not sure about that as it would have still been a busy place for the Auxiliary Patrol & it was also a large commercial port.

Regards,

David.

[bruce]

What a fascinating thread!

It is all the more interesting as, being English, i thought I had a grasp of the English language. All this Naval terminology has confused the bejasus out of me.

To think that Gregory is coping with all of this gobbledegook in his third language..wow! (I don't have a third language, after English and scouse)

It would be like trying to understand all these archaic terms in, say, Swedish.

Bravo, Gregory......as well as to all those who have contributed.....so far.

Bruce

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I'm sorry for adding to you confusion, I echo Bruce's praise for your unpicking the alien language.

...(or one of both depending on size/importance of the port - Swansea apparently being of minor importance, probably the latter?)...

The problem was not so much the size/importance of the port, it was partly due to these ports not being in the established naval command structure in 1914. For the purposes of the Naval Disciplines Act all naval personnel, from the highest Admiral at the Admiralty to the lowest Boy Second Class, had to be borne on the books of a ship. To meet that requirement there had to be ships with sufficient administrative staff as Arabis has outline for dealing with reports, sorting the mail etc. The Auxiliary Patrol required far more ports than ever before to be included in the navy's administration and to have naval staff allocated to them to service the vessels operating from them. Given the number of ports across the British Empire at the time and the demands on ships not every one could be allocated a major warship; indeed even the primary naval bases were not allocated major warships for the purpose. So Swansea was, like Chatham, Plymouth and Portsmouth, administered from small vessels.

[sadsac]

GREGORY, you are correct in that ADM 171 / 80F006 = File No. ADM (Admiralty) 171 / 80 Part F Page 006.

As ARABIS / Per Ardua / Etc. have mentioned them I include some details of awards to ;

WILLIAMS William N/E Pay S/Lt. RNR 84S163 Shikari

Admiral Milford Haven 11.04.19 Gazetted

Auxiliary Patrol Milford Haven 01.07.18 - 11.11.18 Mentioned in Despatches

Continuous good service at H.M. Naval Base, Swansea.

Mr. Williams has impressed me by his merits and unremitting devotion to duty, not only at times when work has been normal - which did not as a result mean any dereliction on his part - but invariably, and when pressure of work of anxious times prevailed he has always been on the spot, and to be relied upon. He is very conscientious and hardworking. His tact and temper have had a moral effect in all departments for the better.

The Crown has a most devoted servant in the person of Paymaster Sub-Lieutenant Williams.

GRANT Edmund P.F.G N/E Captain RN 78A027

Chief of Staff to Vice Admiral Commanding 1st Battle Sqdn.

C-in-C Grand Fleet 15.09.16 Gazetted Battle of Jutland 31.05.16 CB

My (Admiral Burney) Chief of Staff, who afforded me very valuable assistance during the action.

Which may be of interest.

Keep up with the English, which is much, much better than my `Belgian' - in which I can say BEER / Danke Well / Alstublief which is good enough I find !!!!

Tot Zeins !!

Sadsac

[per ardua per mare per terram]

There are Auxiliary Patrol Weekly Reports held at Kew. I'm not familiar with them myself, maybe another member of the forum will flag up which are most of interest.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Using a combination of JJ Colledge's "Ships Of The Royal Navy Vol. 2" 1st edition plus FJ Dittmar & JJ Colledge's "British Warships 1914-1919"

Alfred-Edith no armament listed; port number Ostende 35; hired 1918-1919; 262 tons launched 1908. If she was armed I'd have expected a 3 pounder or or a 12 pounder (75mm aprox) rather than a 13.

Marthe no armament listed; port number Ostende 43; hired 1917-1919; 234 tons launched 1913.

Prince Charles not listed in JJ Colledge's "Ships Of The Royal Navy Vol. 2" 1st edition for WW1 hiring.

FJ Dittmar & JJ Colledge's "British Warships 1914-1919" gives port number Ostende 36; 226 tons launched 1904.

Princess Marie Jose JJ Colledge's "Ships Of The Royal Navy Vol. 2" 1st edition gives: one 6 pounder (the same calibre as the British tanks of the period); hired 1916-1919; 274 tons launched 1915. FJ Dittmar & JJ Colledge's "British Warships 1914-1919" gives port number Ostende 38; 222 tons launched 1913.

Edited 11 March , 2010 by per ardua per mare per terram

[per ardua per mare per terram]

a) ...british fishery trawlers in Milford got equipped with a 3, 6 or 12 pounder gun...

2/ i was astonished to read in Per's post that according to "JJ Colledge's "Ships Of The Royal Navy Vol. 2 (first edition)" the 'Princess Marie Jose' was hired in 1916, as the fishery reserve was not established before may 1917.

(could someone with the second edition of this book please doublecheck this data?)

a) Most of the armed trawlers I have looked at were armed with one of these three guns; the Navy had them available in abundance!

2/ I have the second edition at hom, just not where I wrote the post. I've checked it with regards to the armament, but not the dates of hiring. I will check on those later, but the Admiralty was hiring in trawlers before 1917.

Edited 21 March , 2010 by per ardua per mare per terram

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

Dittmar & Colledge list two vessels named Princess Marie Jose.

The first is a hired trawler, Admiralty No. 1770, Port No. H.242 [Hull], built 1915, 274 tons gross, 1-12 pounder gun, 1-7.5 inch bomb thrower, used for minesweeping, in service from May 1915 to 1919. Saw service in WW2 as Loch Hope. She is listed as an auxiliary small craft in the November 1916 Navy List, but there are no officers listed against her.

The second vessel is the Belgian fishery trawler, Port No. O.38 [Ostend], built 1913, 222 tons gross.

David.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

The "diploma" you refer to is the warrant awarded "By the Commissioners for executing the Office of Lord High Admiral of Great Britain and Ireland, etc." This document gives the rank of Warrant Officer including Skippers RNR.

The seniority dates I gave you for the Fishery Reserve skippers are the dates when they became Skippers RNR. Don't forget that 25/5/17 was the date for requisition of remaining British fishery trawlers but foreign owned trawlers were by agreement only, so could have been taken up after that date.

As I understand it these trawlers were commanded by their skippers both while fishing & at other times, I've not heard of FCOs. Not all these fishery trawlers were armed [see post # 14].

Regards,

David.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

Yes, the dates of the warrants are also the dates of the skippers' seniorities.

The person responsible for firing the gun would be a gunlayer. It's quite possible that the armed fishing trawlers had gun crew that were not originally part of the fishing crew, I don't know for certain. Not sure about Private Pemberthy though, as he was from an infantry regiment not Royal Artillery, more likely to be a naval rating or a marine. It's also possible that some of the Belgian fishery crew could be trained by the Royal Navy to fire their gun.

If you could post a picture of the naval officer you mention it would be a help.

Cheers,

David.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Per,

1) thanks for wanting to look up the hiring dates! looking forward to your reply, as usual

2) have you seen trawlers equipped with 2 guns - for example 2 three pounders?

3) did the location of the gun on the ship have a 'meaning', like fore: offensive - aft: defensive? or is that just another myth?

Gregory

1) All the details in the Second, Revised Edition, for these vessels are the same as in the First. The ships are listed in alphabetical order and there is only one Princess Marie Jose listed for the WWI period. One 6 pounder; hired 1916-1919; 274 tons launched 1915.

Belgian Princess Marie Jose (1,821 tons launched 1922) is listed for WW2, renamed Southern Isles, Nemesis and Baldur.

2) I haven't made a systematic study of armed trawlers.

3) Guns can be used offensively or defensively and as these were steam vessels could be deployed in either role and brought to bear from fore or aft.

Edited 22 March , 2010 by per ardua per mare per terram

[per ardua per mare per terram]

1) there was also a british soldier or marine (rating?) who was responsible for firing the gun, named John Pemberthy, aboard the trawler:

2) what would his function aboard be called in "RNR or RNVR english" (gunman?gunner?)?

3) i think it' s very probable that there were at least british gunners aboard @ some time, as fishermen in Belgium weren't trained to fire 12 pounders

1) If John Pemberthy was in the RNR his record would not be online.

2) I'm probably wrong, but a Seaman Gunner would be assisted by a Gun Layer.

3) Yes there was, on Alfred-Edith William Edward Bennett 2047 was the Gunner, he was awarded a DSM; Frank Evans D.A. 693 RNR was Mentioned in Dispatches both for the same incident that Brouckxon received his DSC for. Evans was also later awarded a Romanian Distinguished Conduct Medal.

Brouckxon's DSC and Bennett's DSM are on the same page:

Gazette Issue 30900 published on the 13 September 1918. Page 10847

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/309...pplements/10847

Over the page is Evans' MID

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/309...pplements/10848

Evans' DCM

Gazette Issue 31236 published on the 14 March 1919. Page 3594

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/312...upplements/3594

Edited 23 March , 2010 by per ardua per mare per terram

[per ardua per mare per terram]

i've seen references to a 'Fight Commanding Officer' (sic) in local publications - has anybody heard of such an "FCO"? google turns up nothing when i search for 'Fight Commanding Officer' - obviously, Ostend being Ostend, 'FCO' could be an english word translated to french first, retranslated to dutch, and then 'made english' again

(i understand that the situation was such that the trawler's skipper stayed the 'civilian' skipper while fishing, while there was an 'FCO' taking over in battle situations?)

Skippers were RNR warrant officers and commanded their ships, just as they did in normal times as the civilian masters of the vessel.

A commissioned officer, usually RNR or RNVR, was in command of a group of trawlers. I haven't seen the term Fight Commanding Officer and neither has a collegue I contacted with far more knowledge about the RNR, & trawlers than I have. The were usually referred to as officer commanding. As there was only one to a group of trawlers the balance of probability was that he would not be aboard a particular trawler/ drifterwhen a fight took place with the enemy!

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

The officer in your photo is a Lieutenant RNVR.

The three ways of communicating between vessels was by radio telegraphy, signalling flags, & signalling lamps.

Regards,

David.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I included the full picture too, it looks like the stokers with their black faces came right from their engine:

(the boy and the 2 men bottom right)

It was very hard for stokers (the Navy's term)/ firemen & trimmers (mercantile marine and RNRT terms) to get clean!