Royal Naval Reserve, Belgian Fishers, DSC medal for Richard Brouckxon

[GregoryB]

edit - posts deleted.

[ARABIS]

Hello Gregory,

Welcome to the Forum.

408 W.F.S., is his service number as a Skipper in the Royal Naval Reserve [Trawler Reserve Emergency Section] Fishery Reservists. His seniority as a Skipper is 8th October 1917, the same date as his appointment to ALFRED-EDITH, which was completed in 1908, & was 262 tons gross.

David.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Welcome to the forum Gregory

The original RNR service cards are held in the Fleet Air Arm Museum. Microfiche copies are at the UK National Archives, Kew in BT 377/7. His campaign medals should be recorded on the microfilmed medal roll in ADM 171/92, also at Kew.

The original recommendation file for the DSC is probably amongst the Admiralty papers and could be found using the ADM 12 indexes. Here's a thread I prepared earlier:

 

 

[sadsac]

Hello Gregory, Welcome. Here is an award of DSC to your GGGFather ;

BROUCKXON Richard N/E Skipper RNR 83P314 H.M.A.F. Trawler Alfred Edith

Senior Naval Officer Swansea 14.09.18 Gaztted

Action with enemy submarines 27.04.18 DSC

Engaged a large enemy submarine on the 27th April, 1918.

Their Lordships' consider that the Skipper and crew displayed considerable courage in fighting a spirited action with the submarine.

Best o Luck.

Sadsac

[Philip Wilson]

His entry in 'Fringes of the Fleet and the Distinguished Service Cross' by R.C. Witte, published in 1971 reads:

Brouckxon, Richard, Skpr, RNR LG 14 Sept 1918

For action with U Boats. Skipper of Alfred Edith (fishery trawler) from 8 Oct.1917 - Navy List Jan.1919.

Witte's book provides much useful information on the recipients of the DSC and was intended to supplement Feyver's basic work, 'The Distinquished Service Cross 1901-38.'

Both books are a good starting point for those researching DSC recipients.

Witte's book include's Rudyard Kipling's poem which describes a fishing boat:

In Lowestoft a boat was laid,

Mark well what I do say!

And she was built for the herring trade,

But she has gone a-rovin', a-rovin', a-rovin',

The Lord knows where!

They gave her Government coal to burn,

and a Q.F. gun at bow and stern

and sent her out a-rovin' etc.

There are a further five verses.

Philip

[ph0ebus]

Following a tip from Daniel/Phoebus from the uboat.net phorum,

i did manage to find the following "National Archives" article by doing an online search on their site:

"ADM 137/3430 - Attack by submarine on Steam Fishing Trawler ALFRED EDITH"

It was possible to order this article online, to ask for a quote & to mention that i was

"looking for all info about the following event: skipper Richard Brouckxon, ship owner Alfred Golder, ship: O.35 'Alfred-Edith' from Ostend Belgium, crew info of the Alfred-Edith, names of other ships involved, info on 1 or 2 submarine(s) involved - possibly sunk, possibly captured, Distinguised Service Cross given to Richard Brouckxon by Georges V at Buckingham palace."

I got a quote,

for 57 pages of A3 Colour images (digitally transferred)

for a total copying cost of £162.60

Somehow, this seems wrong, i did not expect to get this amount of pages -

should i have handled this differently? - Any advice on this would be appreciated.

Gregory

Hi Gregory,

It is possible that the quote is correct. I recently requested a copy of the crew agreements for a WWI-era ship (from another archive), and just the crew agreements was $60+ USD. The few things I have bought from NA have added up too. In reviewing the list of what you requested, it can add up quickly, but it may well give you all the information you seek. You'll only know for sure when it arrives in the mail.

-Daniel

[per ardua per mare per terram]

1/ Do i correctly understand that 408 W.F.S. is a randomly given combination of letters and numbers, without much further

meaning, like for example a car registration plate? - Or does the abbreviation "W.F.S." mean something - and what?

The number was not random, all service numbers issued by the Admiralty were unique, the letters had a meaning; Royal Navy numbers could to . In this case I think that the numbers were issued sequentially.

[sadsac]

GREGORY, answers to your queries. This comes from entries of the file as I compise it.

N/E = No Entry - in this case it is in the place of where an award / title would go - such as Lord / Sir / DSC / DSO.

83P314 = This referres to the National Archives document. ADM 171 / 83P Page 314.

These documents are not in any order, such as alphabetical or number.

They are Recommendations, Honours & Awards to RN, RNR, RNVR, RM, RNAS RAF - WW1.

Senior Naval Officer - SNO In Command ; Naval Area, such as SNO GRANTON / SWANSEA / QUEENSTOWN / HARWICH etc.

HMAF - ??? HM Auxiliary Force ??

As these documents were compiled at the time, it was not always certain that a sinking had been made - hence `engaged E Sub'.

This from as above National Archives, Kew. These are not available on line. There are 9,621 of them.

I emphasise that they are Recommendations & Awards - some times no award was granted, but the act was still commemorated through the Recommendation.

Skipper - non RN Naval Rank.

Good Hunting, Sadsac

[per ardua per mare per terram]

1) ... it is actually not possible for me to go to the archives in Kew:

2) Do you think that it would be better then to contact the FAAM through their website

3) Or would it be possible to find and order (through the internet) the microfiche copie at the UK National Archives in Kew (BT 377/7)?

4) ... and the original recommendation file for the DSC (ADM 12) at Kew, which i would never have known about without your assistance, but am i correct that, to actually find this info, my physical presence @ Kew would be required?

5) "ADM 137/3430 - Attack by submarine on Steam Fishing Trawler ALFRED EDITH" ...I got a quote, for 57 pages of A3 Colour images (digitally transferred) for a total copying cost of £162.60 Somehow, this seems wrong, i did not expect to get this amount of pages -

1) You could ask a researcher to go to Kew for you.

2) Sometimes the Kew microfishe copies are hard to read, because the ink used didn't copy well.

3) You could ask for a document look up request on this forum.

4) Yes, it would need to be seen at Kew.

5) This file might also contain the recommendation for the DSC. Without seeing the file I can't be sure, but it could be the results of a Board of Inquiry into the attack and they could be long.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

This is from "British Warships 1914-1919" by F.J. Dittmar & J.J. Colledge.

FISHERY TRAWLERS.

"War order N.60728 dated 29.5.17 placed all remaining steam vessels engaged in trawl fishing under immediate requisition. Nearly all of the 400-odd vessels affected by this order were conventional trawlers, but certain other craft fitted for trawling were also included. The requisition order was compulsory for all British fishing trawlers, but foreign-owned vessels based in Britain at the time could only be taken up with the consent of the owners. Most of the foreign trawlers were Belgian.

A special Fishery Reserve of the Trawler Section was created for these vessels placed in commission under the white ensign. A nominal payment of one shilling per vessel and one shilling per crew member per month of hire was paid by the government during their naval service. All other expenses resulting from their operation were paid from their commercial fishing incomes. Thusly, they conducted their fishing operations under the control of their owners while in a status of being an HM ship. Personnel were paid on a RNR [Trawler Section], plus five per cent profit bonus from their fishing income. It was planned that they would fish in fleets of 20 vessels, of which one fourth were to be given guns as soon as they became available.

The purpose of the take-over was to effect an increase in fish supply, protect the remaining vessels more adequately from the enemy, and to reduce both fish prices and profits. The average yearly profit per trawler before 1914 was £6000-7000; by 1917 it had risen to £30000-40000 per annum. All vessels were released during the immediate post war demobilisation period when the Auxiliary Patrol was being paid off. Although release occurred during the same period, the Fishery Trawlers nevertheless were not at any time part of the Patrol".

The RNR [Trawler Section] was part of the Auxiliary Patrol involved in minesweeping, patrol work, etc.

As for service numbers, Skippers RNR [Trawler Section] but not Fishery Reserve were W.S.A., not W.F.S., but just to confuse things here is an example from the December 1918 Navy list of three Skippers RNR named Morgan.

[1] Frederick Morgan [D.A. 273]. D.A. is the suffix for Deck Hands, so did this man start his service as a Deck Hand?

[2] Robert T. Morgan [s.A. 2280]. S.A. is the suffix for Second Hands, so did this man start his service as a Second Hand?

[3] Alexander Morgan [W.S.A. 1855]. Did this man start his service as a Skipper?

I have seen mentioned in a thread somewhere that the W stands for Warrant, as Skippers were Warrant Officers, but what about examples [1] & [2] above? Could F.S. be for Fishery Section?

David

[KevinBattle]

blimey!

I'm English and even I don't understand a lot of this Admiralty jargon, so how on earth is poor gregoryb going to manage?

I think he's done extremely well and it sounds as if he deserves all the help possible.

How will it be best for him to proceed now (assuming he can't make it to the National Archives a Kew in the forseeable future?

Is there anything that can be done to help him?

Fascinating stuff, love the comment that hey suddenly realise fish is a useful foodstuff and they ought to go about catching it efficiently .... only a military mind could say the blindingly obvious in such an ingenuous way!!

[horatio2]

As for service numbers, Skippers RNR [Trawler Section] but not Fishery Reserve were W.S.A., not W.F.S., but just to confuse things here is an example from the December 1918 Navy list of three Skippers RNR named Morgan.

[1] Frederick Morgan [D.A. 273]. D.A. is the suffix for Deck Hands, so did this man start his service as a Deck Hand? YES

[2] Robert T. Morgan [s.A. 2280]. S.A. is the suffix for Second Hands, so did this man start his service as a Second Hand? YES

[3] Alexander Morgan [W.S.A. 1855]. Did this man start his service as a Skipper? YES

It would appear that when the Fishery Reserve was formed in 1917 the skippers were given RNR WFS numbers (around 500 of them). The Navy List confirms this. However, for reasons unknown, new fishery skippers, after June 1918 were given WSE numbers (less than 150 of them). They were all disbanded on 31 December 1918.

The reason that RNR men serving in WW1 appear to have 'strange' branch letters seems to be that no discharges and immediate re-enrolments took place during the war. In peacetime that would be the routine for promotion to 2nd hand or Skipper (or from a 1st to a 2nd period of enrolment). So, for example, a man on his 1st period (let's assume a RNR seaman with an 'A'number) expiring during the war, would remain on his 'A' number for the next (2nd) period of enrolment (for another five years, if necessary) and would then, post-war, re-enrol with a 'C' number for his 3rd period.

At least the evidence seems to point to this. Clear as mud.

[ARABIS]

horatio2,

Thanks very much for the information on RNR numbers, it is much appreciated.

Gregory,

Using the October 1917, & December 1918 Navy Lists, here is a list of Skippers for the RNR service of the other three trawlers you have listed.

PRINCE CHARLES

Skipper Jaques Apeslagh RNR FS, WFS 513, seniority 20th Dec. 1917, appointed to vessel 26th Dec. 1917, still there Dec. 1918.

PRINCESS MARIE JOSE

Skipper Pierre Lefeuve RNR FS, WFS 368, seniority 4th Sept. 1917, appointed to vessel on same date.

Skipper Louis Klausing RNR FS, WFS 512, seniority 17th Oct. 1917, appointed to vessel on same date, still there Dec. 1918.

MARTHE

Skipper Pierre Ayaert RNR FS, WFS 371, seniority 19th Sept. 1917, appointed to vessel Sept. 1917, still there Dec. 1918.

The "Distinguished Service Cross", by W. H. Fevyer, lists your great-great-grandfather but does not list Louis Klausing.

I agree with your comment that your great-great-grandfather skippered ALFRED-EDITH as a civilian fishing trawler before the 8th October 1917.

Regards,

David.

[Lörscher]

...According to this article, the O.35 "Alfred-Edith" under command of skipper Richard Brouckxon rescued the crew of the norwegian "Fury Cross", which was sunk by U-39 on july 4th 1915 (cross-checked Uboat.net and the "Fury Cross" was not listed as being sunk by U-39)....

Gregory,

look out for FIERY CROSS ( http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/2170.html ), this vessel was sunk in the afternoon of 03.07.1915 so probably the crew was rescued by ALFRED EDITH on the 04.07.1915.

Oliver

[per ardua per mare per terram]

... the DSC was the highest medal available to these men (limitation due to their rank, see the wikipedia entry on DSC) (IIUC).

...

The highest award available to a Skipper was the Victoria Cross. Skipper Joseph Watt, R.N.R.(T), 1206 W.S.A. and Skipper Thomas Crisp, D.S.C., R.N.R.(T), 10055 D.A were both awarded VCs.

Watt http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/302...upplements/8985

Crisp http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/303...pplements/11315

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/310...pplements/13695

[per ardua per mare per terram]

(It strikes me that the ship-owner of this boat was again Mr. Alfred Golder's - this man was risking a lot (his very expensive steam trawlers, time, energy, insurance issues, human lives) - he probably instructed his crews to actively attack u-boats?)

His ships were hired by the Admiralty, if they were sailing out of UK ports he probably didn't have much choice. In any case they ran the risk of being sunk by the Germans; they had already sent many unarmed fishing vessels to the bottom.

Princesse Marie-José served again in WW2 and was renamed 3 times.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

The names are spelt as they are in the Navy Lists, whether they are spelt correctly I can't say, but Apeslagh is how it is printed.

I can't find a DSC for Clausing either, he is spelt Klausing in the Navy Lists, there is no Clausing. Your great-great- grandfather has DSC after his name in the Dec. 1918 Navy List, but Klausing does not.

A little more information on the other trawlers:-

MARTHE, 234 tons gross, built 1913, served in WWII as CRAIG ISLAND.

PRINCE CHARLES, 226 tons gross, built 1904.

PRINCESS MARIE JOSE, 222 tons gross, built 1913.

Regards,

David.

[chrisharley9]

His entry in 'Fringes of the Fleet and the Distinguished Service Cross' by R.C. Witte, published in 1971 reads:

Brouckxon, Richard, Skpr, RNR LG 14 Sept 1918

For action with U Boats. Skipper of Alfred Edith (fishery trawler) from 8 Oct.1917 - Navy List Jan.1919.

Witte's book provides much useful information on the recipients of the DSC and was intended to supplement Feyver's basic work, 'The Distinquished Service Cross 1901-38.'

Both books are a good starting point for those researching DSC recipients.

Witte's book include's Rudyard Kipling's poem which describes a fishing boat:

In Lowestoft a boat was laid,

Mark well what I do say!

And she was built for the herring trade,

But she has gone a-rovin', a-rovin', a-rovin',

The Lord knows where!

They gave her Government coal to burn,

and a Q.F. gun at bow and stern

and sent her out a-rovin' etc.

There are a further five verses.

Philip

Well I had never seen that poem before; my father in law was a Lowestoft trawler man & a Patrol Service man from the Second Conflict

[chrisharley9]

Lowestoft Trawler Sinks U Boat might be off topic

[per ardua per mare per terram]

GregoryB said:

(i found out it was published with other Rudyard Kipling poems in a booklet called 'Fringes of the Fleet' in 1915 or 1916 - about WWI @ sea.)

Here's a thread on Fringes of the Fleet

 

 

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Some other records at Kew that may be of interest:

TS 13/798 Queen's Proctor: Prize and Prize Bounty Cases, Decrees and Affidavits Writ No. 2038 Princess Marie Jose (Trawler)

HCA 20/1543/909 Folio 909 of 1917: Owners of Yarra v Owners of Alfred Edith and freight. Brief notes of proceedings.

HCA 27/166/909 Folio 909 of 1917: Owners of Yarra v Owners of Alfred Edith and freight. Brief notes of proceedings.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

Skipper = non RN naval rank. Skippers were Royal Naval Reserve not Royal Navy, so the rank was RNR not RN [non RN].

The naval base at Swansea from 11.2.18 until 1.2.19 was HMS SHIKARI II & the highest ranking officer [senior Naval Officer] listed against her was Captain Noel Grant CB RN. My interpretation of post #4 is that he is the person who put in the report about Richard Brouckxon, not that Richard Brouckxon was Senior Naval Officer at Swansea.

Petty Officers were ratings [i.e., other ranks], not officers. Warrant Officers were officers appointed by Admiralty Warrant. Commissioned Officers were officers who held the King's Commission.

In 1921 the Trawler Reserve became the Patrol Service, Skipper Lieutenant was a Patrol Service rank, therefore does not apply to the First World War.

I have found the following in "Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services" by Commander W. E. May.

THE FISHERY RESERVE.

"Its only special distinction marks were those of its skippers who wore the uniform of chief petty officers, Royal Naval Reserve, with the addition of stripes on the sleeve. A skipper wore one stripe of green braid on each, a group skipper two. In addition a chief skipper wore a waved 3/8 inch [9.5 mm] stripe of gold lace above the green".

So it looks like he is wearing the correct cap badge after all. The badge I showed you in your other thread was correct for a skipper of the Trawler Reserve but not for the Fishery Reserve part of the Trawler Reserve. Even though he is wearing a petty officers [ratings] cap badge, in this case he is still an officer.

Regards,

David.

[horatio2]

There are more RNR official number suffixes than I have had hot breakfasts. The records of many of them have not survived (e.g. 'P' - wot that?). However, the Skipper suffixes that do survive as records are: WSA, WSB, WSC, WSE and WSX. The WFS suffix records have not survived although the skippers can be traced through the Navy List RNR listings. As to meaning, 'WS' could be 'Warrant Skipper' - as good a translation as any. The additional letters 'A', 'B' and 'C' refer to 1st, 2nd and 3rd 5-year-periods of enrolment in the RNR. The WSE can be translated as Warrant Skippers in the Trawler Reserve Emergency Section which, late in the war, took in numerous WFS Skippers from the 1917 Fishery Reserve. WFS could be 'Warrant Fishery Skipper'. The Fishery Reserve I understand to have been employed on normal fishing operations but had been taken under Admiralty control and protection. Perhaps the transfers of the WSF skippers to WSE reflects their boats being taken away from fishing and transferred to naval employment in the tasks of the Auxiliary Patrol.

WSX were Warrant Skippers first enrolled after 1925 under new pay regulations.

This is largely surmise, there being little written evidence.

P.S. By my rough reckoning there were about 600 WFS skippers. WSE official numbers ran to nearly 150 many (most? all?) of whom came from WFS. More research required. The two lists of skippers were clearly quite distinct because, on transferring from WFS to WSE, a skipper was given a new WSE seniority date in the Navy List.

[ARABIS]

Gregory,

HMS SHIKARI II was an old cruiser converted to a depot ship & was at the port of Swansea from 11.12.18 until 1.2.19,

& would have been the headquarters for the navy there between those dates. I don't know if this included buildings on land as well.

"CB" is an abbreviation for "Companion of the Order of the Bath", an Honour awarded to Captain Grant on 1st January 1915.

The links about RNR rank distinctions you have provided in post #35 do not apply to your great-great-grandfather as he was a Skipper in the FISHERY RESERVE. Please see post #33 for the uniforms of Skippers of the FISHERY RESERVE. The first link is mis-leading as they talk about a "Fisherman's Reserve" by which they mean the RNR Trawler Section, don't take this as the FISHERY RESERVE. The commissioned officers list in this link applies to the Patrol Service . Also the RNR [T] RANKS GREAT WAR section has missed out the rank of Chief Skipper

In the second link the rank distinctions shown mostly apply to after the First World War.

Attached should be a photograph of Skipper Mead RNR TRAWLER SECTION. Although not FISHERY RESERVE as your G-G-grandfather was, he is wearing a jacket with cuffs for a warrant officer which are the same as your G-G-grandfather's. According to the uniform description for skippers of the FISHERY RESERVE there should also be a stripe of green braid above the buttons, but this would be difficult to see against a navy blue sleeve in your G-G-grandfather's black & white photograph. Note that Skr. Mead has a different cap badge because he is not FISHERY RESERVE.

I hope I've helped to make this complicated subject a bit clearer, I'm going for a lie-down now

Regards,

David.

[sadsac]

GREGB / ALL, as a matter of interest, as they have been mentioned here are details of the awards to skipper WATT ;

WATT Joseph 1206WSA Skipper RNR 80F006 H.M. Drifter Gowan Lea

Vice Admiral Commanding Adriatic Sqdn 29.08.17 Gazetted

Otranto Straits Action Adriatic Drifters attack by Austrian Cruiser 15.05.17 VC & promoted to Chief Skipper 15.05.17

For greatest gallantry and example.

He replied to Austrian Cruisers demand to surrender by calling for three cheers from his crew, attacking the enemy, and subsequently saving his ship when all means of offence were destroyed by the enemy.

WATT Joseph VC - WSA1206 Skipper RNR 80F002 H.M. Drifter Floand

Commodore Commanding British Adriatic Force N/E N/E

Otranto Straits Action Adriatic Drifters attack by Austrian Cruiser 15.05.17

Promoted Chief Skipper 15.05.17 For meritorious service in the action in the Straits of Otranto on the 15th May, 1917.

Sadsac